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Old 24th September 2015, 21:38   #226
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The impact of this is going to be real bad. Time and time people have been citing the example of Golf against hybrid vehicles in the U.S for more than a decade. COx emissions were touted on top of that.

Japanese sure will be smiling. They were atleast forthright in their decision of not being able to meet CARB emission standards. Honda actually could for small displacement engines (without urea injection) but it was with the addition of costly catalytic converter which they couldn't justify for the price differential of diesel and petrol.

Have read that the diesel yield from a gallon of oil is much less than petrol and the production costs are a little higher (Not sure about this). But personally would love if manufacturers get away from diesel for passenger cars atleast. Atleast in the U.S, it should be finale for that bad smoky diesel.

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Old 24th September 2015, 22:07   #227
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by RoadSurfer View Post
Can you please share the source of this information? What I remember reading is that along with the VWs, BMW was also tested. BMW's emissions were at par or less than the permissible limits.
Autobild Germany claims that the X3 is also cheating emissions laws.
I don't think that VW is alone here, a more stringent investigation would reveal how many more manufacturers are actually cheating.
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Old 24th September 2015, 22:11   #228
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

And it goes from bad to worse!

Volkswagen's subsidiary brand, Seat, has now been found guilty of installing the "cheat" software in over 500,000 cars made in Spain to duck the pollution tests!

Quote:
"The Spanish subsidiary of the German group has installed over half a million of the tampered diesel engines into its vehicles since 2009," El Pais wrote citing unnamed sources with ties to the company.

The diesel engines used by Seat are in theory the same ones used by Volkswagen and Audi in the United States, the newspaper said.

Seat's plant in Martorell near Barcelona allegedly installed them in vehicles that were on sale until this year, it added.
ET Auto
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Old 24th September 2015, 22:21   #229
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
And it goes from bad to worse!

Volkswagen's subsidiary brand, Seat, has now been found guilty of installing the "cheat" software in over 500,000 cars made in Spain to duck the pollution tests!
Then I'm assuming Skoda is in line too!
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Old 24th September 2015, 22:32   #230
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by cs_rajesh View Post
Lets think this way. The root cause is the kind of fuel - Diesel. Given the reported failure of VW engines at US and now one of the BMW engine in EU and possible forthcoming violations of other diesel engines of other manufacturers, we could draw the picture that the technological advances of any diesel engine / diesel auto manufacturer particularly, today seems to be unable to meet the stringent emission guidelines of US and EU. And if manufacturers cannot meet today's guidelines, then they probably cannot meet future guidelines and have to sacrifice on performance. And thus, in competition with gasoline, benzin powered or electric vehicles like Tesla, diesel cars may not be a prospective buy in the future, in US and perhaps later, in the EU market as well.
The root cause of this problem is a mixture of various factors. The government, environmentalists, companies, diesel(of course!) and human beings.

Its a vicious circle if you think about it. The human beings are careless enough to burn anything and everything with a very short term and crude view about sustainability and environment friendliness. He uses oil and oil to light the cities. And of course run his automobiles. The environmentalists, who want to curtail this, set up agencies and governments that are responsible for setting up the regulation and (unrealistically) burdening the automotive companies with far too many research in a very short period of time. The companies, if unable to match the deadlines, then look at alternatives. And it comes to bite them in their backs.

Take a look at this, for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...passenger_cars

Take the Diesel.

NOx for Euro 5b stood at 0.18 g/km in September 2011. If it followed trend, as set by the earlier norms, it should have been 0.1 g/km for Euro 6, taking into consideration of a 10% deviation. And considering Euro 5b came in September 2011, having the next big update in only 3 years, is asking for far too much. The same can be said of Particulate matter when it was 0.025 for Euro 4 in January 2005. 4 years later, comes an update, asking companies to reduce it by 80% to 0.005. And 2 years later there was an update, and it was called Euro 5b.

Its like asking a formula 1 car to complete twice the race length in a quarter of time. Its just not possible.

Given that Diesel was always the "unclean" fuel, sufficient time (and a fair one!), should have been given to companies indulging in diesel research. The government should have realised this when their regulations were a bit too strict and automotive companies voiced their opinions about how it was suffocatingly difficult to make diesel engines cleaner.

Quote:
http://www.livescience.com/52284-vol...hallenges.html

The news just keeps getting worse for Volkswagen.

The company is recalling 500,000 diesel cars in the United States and 11 million vehicles worldwide because they may emit up to 40 times the allowable levels of air pollutants that are called nitrogen oxides (NOx), The New York Times reported.

The company is now embroiled in a scandal after it was revealed that Volkswagen deliberately turned off the filter designed to trap NOx from the exhaust.

"They just wrote a piece of code that said, 'only turn it on when you're being tested,'" said Jorn Herner, chief of the Research Planning, Administration, and Emission Mitigation Branch of the California Air Resources Board's research division. The breadth and flagrant nature of the cheating has enraged many car owners and has forced the company's CEO to resign.

But the recall has also raised this question: Was it so hard to make diesel cars run with low emissions that the company had to resort to cheating?

It turns out that diesel engines have an inherent trade-off between power, fuel efficiency and clean emissions, experts said.

"You have power, you have energy, you have emissions: You get to choose two of them," said Don Hillebrand, the director of energy systems research at Argonne National Laboratory in Illinois, and the former president of the Society for Automotive Engineers.

In this case, Volkswagen prioritized power and fuel economy over meeting the state and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's emissions standards, Herner said.

Gasoline engines

To understand why this trade-off exists, it's helpful to know about the differences between diesel and gasoline combustion engines. The gasoline engines that most American cars use work by igniting a vapor of gasoline and air using a spark plug. When the gasoline-air vapor combusts, it expands and pushes a piston down, producing the torque that turns the wheels and propels the car.

Because gasoline is highly refined, it's composed of a fairly uniform mix of relatively short chains of linked hydrogen and carbon atoms, known as hydrocarbons, Hillebrand said.

"You know exactly what the fuel looks like," Hillebrand told Live Science. "It's fairly easy to know exactly the chemical composition of your exhaust."

With uniform combustion products, it's a relatively simple matter to clean the exhaust. Gas engines use simple catalysts, such as a material like platinum, to bind poisonous chemicals like carbon monoxide, and convert them to harmless substances such as carbon dioxide. (Carbon dioxide is the primary greenhouse gas driving climate change, but is also the harmless substance we exhale whenever we breathe.) Carmakers have become extremely good at cleaning gasoline emissions, Hillebrand said.

"After exhaust comes out of a gasoline engine, the air is actually cleaner than the background air in Chicago," Hillebrand said.

Diesel engines

Diesel engines work differently. Instead of using a spark plug to combust the fuel, a diesel engine compresses a mist of the liquid fuel and air to incredibly high temperatures and pressures — sometimes thousands of degrees Fahrenheit. This pressure-cooker environment is actually what causes the mixture to spontaneously combust.

Because the mixture spontaneously combusts, it's at the perfect pressure and temperature to efficiently burn energy in the fuel. The greater gas expansion causes more powerful compression of the pistons, which produces more torque, Hillebrand said. Big rigs use diesel precisely for this extra towing ability, he said. (To withstand the ultrahigh temperatures and pressures produced in the combustion process, diesel engines must also be made of much sturdier, thicker materials, which is why they can run for hundreds of thousands of miles, Hillebrand added).

Diesel fuel

Diesel fuel is also different from gasoline. The thick, syrupy substance isn't much different from the oil pulled directly from deep underground. Chemically, it's barely refined and contains a mix of much longer hydrocarbon chains and other mystery compounds, Hillebrand said.

Because it's chock full of longer hydrocarbon chains, each gallon of diesel fuel contains more energy. Combining the more energy-dense fuel with its more efficient combustion process, the diesel engine can achieve much higher fuel economy.

But, the trouble is that "it's got chemicals in there and things that will burn that you don't always know what they are," although many of them are rich in sulfur, Hillebrand said.

The old diesel cars that belched stinky, sooty exhaust were spewing lots of this sulfurous particulate matter into the atmosphere. Nowadays, carmakers have gotten very good at trapping this type of air pollutant from diesel exhaust, he said.

Noxious fumes

But Volkswagen ran into trouble when trying to trap another type of pollutant, called NOx. NOx includes a variety of nitrogen and oxygen chemical compounds (such as NO2, NO3, etc.) that only form at high temperatures. NOx reacts with sunlight in the atmosphere and converts into ozone, and ozone is an irritant, Herner said.

"It's what makes your eyes water, it makes your throat hurt, it exacerbates asthma and there are all sorts of cardiovascular problems you can get from it," Herner said.

Diesel cars produce much more NOx than gasoline cars. For instance, when Herner and his colleagues tested emissions from 20,000 2009 and later model passenger cars in Los Angeles, just 0.6 percent were diesel cars, yet they produced a significant fraction of the NOx emissions, and most came from Volkswagens and Audis, he said.

"The temperatures and pressures under which a diesel engine runs the most fuel efficient and the most peppy are also the conditions that will convert the maximum amount of oxygen and nitrogen into NOx," Herner told Live Science.

The United States has moved to sharply curb NOx emissions, and the Obama administration recently proposed even lower ozone standards, which will fuel even further NOx reductions. In Europe, where about half of the cars run on diesel fuel, regulators have instead focused on raising fuel economy and reducing carbon emissions, with the trade-off being dirtier air, Herner said. [The 10 Most Polluted Places on Earth]

Dirty emissions, greater power

Cleaning NOx from diesel fuel is also a challenging process. Because of the fuel's more varied composition and the engine's use of spontaneous combustion, it's not clear exactly when and exactly which compounds have formed, making it trickier to clean up, Hillebrand said.

About a decade ago, before emissions standards were lowered, car companies pursued different strategies for solving this problem.

"Different manufacturers made bets on different technology," Herner said.

Cars built by Mercedes-Benz, for instance, inject an extra fluid called urea to convert NOx into less harmful substances. This approach (called Bluetec) doesn't compromise on fuel economy or power, but it requires a separate tank for the urea, which must be periodically refilled, Herner said.

Volkswagen invested millions to develop a NOx trap instead. The trap soaks up nitrous oxide and nitrogen dioxide like a sponge. Once the trap is full, the system can inject a dose of fuel before releasing exhaust substances. The fuel reacts with the NOx to form benign substances, Herner said. Typically, the filter only runs for about 10 seconds, once every 10 minutes, Herner said. (They may also run their combustion differently at certain points to lower emissions.)

In light of recent revelations, however, it looks like Volkswagen made the wrong bet.

Volkswagen may have resorted to cheating because the NOx trap eats up fuel or reduces the car's pep, Herner said. It's a relatively simple fix to reactivate NOx traps on the recalled cars, he said.

"These vehicles can operate within our regulations," Herner said. "Our priority now is to get them fixed so that they do so."

But Volkswagen owners may end up being disappointed with the more sluggish, gas-guzzling cars they get back, Herner said.

Future technology?

It's likely that cars of the future will include diesel technology that combines clean-emission techniques, power and fuel economy, Hillebrand said. When engineers analyze the diesel-engine combustion process, they have found that there are some pressures and temperatures that produce high levels of soot or NOx. But some temperature and pressure regimes get efficient fuel combustion without producing either pollutant.

Hillebrand's team is developing low-temperature combustion systems that aim to do just that. These systems either precisely time fuel injection or even use gasoline and diesel fuel at different times in the car's operation to hit that sweet spot, he said. These experimental systems, however, need a lot more engineering before they're a marketable solution, he added.

Clearly, the problem of clean diesel engines is extremely challenging, the experts said.

"It's not that it's easy. But that doesn't mean that you cheat," Herner said.
That said, cheating is cheating. No matter what. And VW, for all its name and glory, did the wrong thing. And they are paying the price for it. And if other OEMs were also involved, they should be paying the price as well.

It boils down to a simple formula - Find a way. Or find an excuse. And VW "unsuccessfully" did.
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Old 24th September 2015, 23:00   #231
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

OMG! This has opened a pandora's box. Shock waves that emanated from US are engulfing the whole world. It started with VW but looks like the other German car makers may also eventually find themselves on the wrong side of the law. Do I hear the Japanese chuckling? Will this be the harbinger of end of diesel cars as we know today? But the sheer number of diesel cars in India and Europe is staggering. Will the Govts. turn a blind eye to this problem, since fixing all the existing cars would be like cleaning the Augean Stables? They won't know where to start from.

Who thought diesel party would ever come to his? Now, this, coupled with fallen petrol prices, may make many to reconsider petrol cars again.

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Old 24th September 2015, 23:09   #232
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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But the sheer number of diesel cars in India and Europe is staggering. Will the Govts. turn a blind eye to this problem, since fixing all the existing cars would be like cleaning the Augean Stables?
Maybe the NGT will now pass a ruling that all VW/Skoda cars in Delhi must be scrapped
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Old 25th September 2015, 00:20   #233
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Going by the news reports looks like the business of promoting Clean Diesel technology is not clean at all, infact its getting murkier by the day. Roughly one-third the passenger cars in Europe now run on diesel, and it's one reason cities like Paris have a serious smog problem issues and rising trend of respiratory ailments have been noted as a matter of concern in major European cities.

Looking at this controversy it seems that making a low pollution diesel engine with good power and mileage seems to be an elusive task. Now wonder VW’s tec team came up with such an ingenious cheat solution to beat the emission guy. Wondering how other manufactures are achieving their tough emission norms ? May be they too have some trick up there sleeves.
For now look like the party is over for small diesel engines cars worldwide and in US market it’s dead now.
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Old 25th September 2015, 01:42   #234
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

This sort of development only signals the death knell for diesels in these markets. Diesel was anyway a very insignificant percentage of North American sales, and thats going to become yet more insignificant to the point of irrelevancy.

And when diesel sales in developed markets plunge, not sure how much motivation manufacturers would have persisting with diesel development for non-developed markets alone.

Bad move, VW, in more ways than one.

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Old 25th September 2015, 01:50   #235
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

BMW share's fall on reports of it diesel X3 failing emissions test. Seems BMW too is joining the VW party.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volk...-bmw-1.3241472
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Old 25th September 2015, 03:14   #236
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I think that the effects of this scandal on diesel cars is greatly exaggerated in this thread and elsewhere. As long as the cost of ownership for diesel cars remain at around the same level as petrol cars or even cheaper, I think people will continue to buy diesel cars. When it comes to voting with their wallets, environmental concerns would be the last on the majority's minds. For eg: how many BHP-ians have listed "low emissions" as one of their criteria for choosing a car? Even when some prefer petrol over diesel, it is mainly due to low expected running or simply because they like the way a petrol car drives.

If the environmental tests become more stringent and diesel technology becomes more expensive or the governments decide to tax diesel cars more, I expect the manufacturers to raise the costs of their petrol offerings to maintain roughly the same equation to diesel offerings as now. I think the big manufacturers have invested too much in diesel technology to simply let it die due to this scandal.
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Old 25th September 2015, 03:14   #237
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by Swapnil4585 View Post
... ... ... Speaks volume of the prevailing attitude the Americans have for their environment.
Maybe. In some respects. but, err... oil? For example?
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Old 25th September 2015, 04:36   #238
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by sumeethaldankar View Post
BMW share's fall on reports of it diesel X3 failing emissions test. Seems BMW too is joining the VW party.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volk...-bmw-1.3241472
That's not quite true. Per Jalopnik:

"Today that the German government announced that this VW issue effects many of European diesel engines too. They’ve identified the 1.6 and 2.0 diesels, but it is just a matter of time before they realise that a different algorithm is limiting the urea flow in the 3.0 diesel. The ICCT had data from Emissions Analytics from PEMs testing of an Audi A8 with the 3.0 diesel. This was x22 times over the 80mg/km NOx limit.

Yesterday the EU voted in an amendment to the EU6 legislation, to enforce the Real Driving Emissions tests on passenger cars from 2017. This was voted on in the Environmental council, and apparently supersedes the authority of the body that was supposed to handle this matter. The car industry (predominantly VW) had been pushing for a deviation factor of x3-x5 times the legal limits for “in-use” testing. Yesterday’s decision will bring the deviation factor to X1.5 times the emission limits in the test cycle. This will be difficult for vehicles with lean NOx traps, or SCRs with small urea tanks.

The reason why being eleven times over the EU emissions is mostly ok is a little complicated.

Basically, different speed load profile in the EU cycle to the US cycle - US cycle is very tough, and runs the engines up to full load in most cases. EU cycle is more like 50% load and max 2200rpm.

Warm up profile of engines from cold start (25degC ambient temp) means that the engine will behave differently outside the specific EU cycle and at different ambient temps. This is called cycle beating but it is currently legal. Most PEMs measurements are taken from a hot engine - this is not the case during the drive cycle. Engines are optimized to lower NOx emissions during the warmup phase, and the hot fast section is at higher engine loads.
The defeat devices that VW are using turn off the emissions controls when the steering wheel is being used.

There is a ‘real world’ measurement using PEMs by Emissions Analytics of a EU6 compliant Audi A8 with the 3.0 diesel. This was x22 times over the EU limit of NOx, hence it will have a defeat device restricting the urea flow when not driven on a chassis dynamometer.

In summary, BMW is just playing by the rules to be competitive. VW is cheating."


http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-...tes-1732767600

Interestingly, VW claimed that their diesels are "perfect" in an interview just a week before this whole story broke.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/384961/v...f-powertrains/

On another note, the ACCC has launched an investigation into VAG here in Australia. So that makes - Australia, Canada, Germany, France, India, South Korea and the US investigating VAG. I'm sure other countries will follow suit soon.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2...obe-vw-scandal
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Old 25th September 2015, 06:54   #239
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

This maybe cause a wall to wall analysis of diesel v petrol to be undertaken, not just what comes out of the tail pipes.
Other relevant factors I can think of are:
1. Relative environmental costs of producing petrol v diesel
2. Ditto for building/maintaining/life span of the heavier diesel engines v petrol
3. The relative fuel efficiency of the two

And others I can't readily think of.

And all of the above keeping both held to the same emission norms because these have an impact on what can't be easily measured - lifespans and medical costs caused by auto emissions.

It isn't often that such an approach is taken, it will be interesting to see if this happens now in this instance.
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Old 25th September 2015, 08:27   #240
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

"Truth in Engineering"

Oh!! The Irony.

Would love to see the marketing men wiggle out of this slogan. Maybe offer different interpretations of "Truth" and/or "Engineering".

I can't help but say that I am glad that VAG has been nailed. Any company that introduces an "Economy" model for India thinking that one reverse lamp is good enough earns my contempt, and VAG was already high up on my contempt list for other reasons as well.

What's also interesting is that the snooty, "Holier than thou" attitude that Europeans had towards the Americans regarding the environment and what they thought was the best solution has blown up in their face with the very expensive Diesel bet they took.

Of the German marques, my preferred one had always been Mercedes, and I am glad that their decision to stick with Bluetec urea injection technology is going to pay dividends.

For those that think that the emissions of the VAG TDI will be OK for India since we are still in BS4, please realize that these cars are failing by 15-20 times the current limits. Not just a few units.

And to those that think that VAG should be given benefit of doubt, please realize that this study was released over a year and half ago, and VAG has been fighting the results of the study since. So to say that they were caught with their pants down is absurd, unless you think it takes a year and half to unzip pants.

Why are all our righteous members not out with their sticks and spades to call out on the lying cheats at Volkswagen, now that enough and more technical clarifications have been provided?

Cheers
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