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Old 19th September 2015, 19:46   #16
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Wonder what goes on in the minds of the executives who approve such a move. Did they think they can get away with it? or the older management (2009) simply thought it would be a problem for a newer management to deal with.
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Old 19th September 2015, 20:25   #17
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Irrespective of VW being found guilty or not, I fully expect 2 things to happen in the near future
a. More countries will open investigations into VW (esp the Scandinavian countries which are very proactive on pollution)
b. More manufacturers could face investigations - not just in the US, but across a wide spectrum of countries

I suspect this could even be extended to cover Petrol engines - after all what's the guarantee that these haven't been tampered with?
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Old 20th September 2015, 01:46   #18
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by prakhar1998 View Post
Extremely disappointing actions from a company as large and reputable as VW.

Does this mean that the power figures of the cars will be lower post recall calibration, to comply with the emission norms, or will the fuel efficiency drop?

I am sure there are other companies involved too. Investigation teams need to dig deeper.
It is indeed disappointing that VW has to face this issue. The 2.0l TDI in question was a run away success. It was termed as the long term successor to the 2.2l TDI that was also very successful. And the best bit was, it was designed to be used across the MQB portfolio since its introduction in 2012.

There are 2 variants for this engine. The 8v and the 16v. I think the engine in question is the 8v. I may be wrong here.

2.0 R4 8v TDI PD 47-103kW
Volkswagen Passat B5, Volkswagen Golf Mk5, VW Jetta Mk5, Volkswagen Touran, Volkswagen Tiguan, VW Passat B6, Audi 8P A3, Audi B7 A4, Audi B8 A4, Audi C6 A6, SEAT Leon, SEAT Altea and XL, SEAT Toledo, Škoda Octavia, Volkswagen Industrial Motor, Chrysler Sebring, Chrysler Sebring (convertible), Dodge Avenger, Dodge Caliber (MY07 BKD, MY08 BMR), Dodge Journey, Jeep Compass, Mitsubishi Lancer, Mitsubishi Grandis, Mitsubishi Outlander

2.0 R4 16v TDI PD 103-125 kW
Audi 8P A3, Audi B7 A4, Audi B8 A4, Audi C6 A6, Jeep Patriot 2.0CRD (BKD: 09/07) SEAT León Mk2, Škoda Octavia (BKD: 11/08->), Škoda Superb (BKD: 01/09->), Volkswagen Golf Mk5, VW Jetta Mk5, Volkswagen Touran, VW Passat B6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...diesel_engines

This link talks about the 2.0l that has gotten VW in trouble.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/detaile...er-tdi-diesel/

The problem with engine/emission re-calibration is that you dont know whether or not the power is going to increase or decrease. Or the fuel efficiency for that matter. The NOx sensor, the EGR and the DPR would have to be reconfigured, or worse, replaced, to refresh the emission norms, which I believe are now Euro-6 from the earlier Euro-5. I feel VW USA should have done better than that.
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Old 20th September 2015, 05:43   #19
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

What's going to happen in their biggest market for Diesels - Europe ? They must be doing this all across and who knows in 6 cylinders as well .

And this problem is already known in Europe with car manufacturers asking for time till 2020

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...s-report-finds

On average, the cars emit seven times the permitted level of NOx gasses, with the worst car producing 22 times the legal limit. Models from every major motor manufacturer breached the limit when they were evaluated in real-world conditions.
From 1 September, new diesel cars in the EU have had to comply with emissions rules called “Euro 6”. However, carmakers can use a whole range of techniques to ensure that their cars perform far better under test conditions than when driven by ordinary drivers.

http://www.theicct.org/news/press-re...rs-seven-times


And we always used to crib about their dealerships cheating customer



not able to find any comparison on norms in Europe vs US - some details form wiki

source -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...sion_standards
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_t2.php
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VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test-us.jpg  


Last edited by Turbanator : 20th September 2015 at 06:02.
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Old 20th September 2015, 06:07   #20
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Default Volkswagen and Audi accused of cheating US Emissions Test

Does anybody understand in real technical detail how VW allegedly does this trick?
How does it detect this EPA testing mode and what does it change in the engine performance/parameters so it become compliant?
Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 20th September 2015 at 06:09.
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Old 20th September 2015, 06:22   #21
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
how VW allegedly does this trick?
more details should surface later -

A sophisticated software algorithm on certain Volkswagen vehicles detects when the car is undergoing official emissions testing, and turns full emissions controls on only during the test. The effectiveness of these vehicles' pollution emissions control devices is greatly reduced during all normal driving situations. This results in cars that meet emissions standards in the laboratory or testing station, but during normal operation, emit nitrogen oxides, or NOx, at up to 40 times the standard. The software produced by Volkswagen is a "defeat device," as defined by the Clean Air Act

http://www.cnet.com/news/volkswagen-...issions-tests/



Last edited by Turbanator : 20th September 2015 at 06:23.
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Old 20th September 2015, 06:41   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post


more details should surface later -

A sophisticated software algorithm on certain Volkswagen vehicles detects when the car is undergoing official emissions testing, and turns full emissions controls on only during the test. The effectiveness of these vehicles' pollution emissions control devices is greatly reduced during all normal driving situations. This results in cars that meet emissions standards in the laboratory or testing station, but during normal operation, emit nitrogen oxides, or NOx, at up to 40 times the standard. The software produced by Volkswagen is a "defeat device," as defined by the Clean Air Act

http://www.cnet.com/news/volkswagen-...issions-tests/



You might consider an EGR a defeat device, because under normal driving condition it doesn't do much either, but it allows the car to pass MOTs in Europe at least.
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Old 20th September 2015, 09:03   #23
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by VaidhiR View Post
There are 2 variants for this engine. The 8v and the 16v. I think the engine in question is the 8v. I may be wrong here.

2.0 R4 8v TDI PD 47-103kW
Volkswagen Passat B5, Volkswagen Golf Mk5, VW Jetta Mk5, Volkswagen Touran, Volkswagen Tiguan, VW Passat B6, Audi 8P A3, Audi B7 A4, Audi B8 A4, Audi C6 A6, SEAT Leon, SEAT Altea and XL, SEAT Toledo, Škoda Octavia, Volkswagen Industrial Motor, Chrysler Sebring, Chrysler Sebring (convertible), Dodge Avenger, Dodge Caliber (MY07 BKD, MY08 BMR), Dodge Journey, Jeep Compass, Mitsubishi Lancer, Mitsubishi Grandis, Mitsubishi Outlander

2.0 R4 16v TDI PD 103-125 kW
Audi 8P A3, Audi B7 A4, Audi B8 A4, Audi C6 A6, Jeep Patriot 2.0CRD (BKD: 09/07) SEAT León Mk2, Škoda Octavia (BKD: 11/08->), Škoda Superb (BKD: 01/09->), Volkswagen Golf Mk5, VW Jetta Mk5, Volkswagen Touran, VW Passat B6
Its neither of these two above engines, both are unit injector engines and not the ones facing EPA wrath.

This is the engine being discussed, 2.0 R4 16v TDI CR 81-176kW. The common rail engine.
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Old 20th September 2015, 14:10   #24
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Shame on VW to resort to such shady practices. If these are the kind of cheap tricks played by one of the top 3 auto manufacturers in the globe, it puts some serious doubts on credibly of others and EPA might go rampage to test out all cars from all manufacturers.
First of all how could the EPA emission test system be cheated so easily or may be a smart VW engineer who figured out the loop hole in the procedures. Why did it take 6 years for authorities to figure it out? A few days ago it was air bag recall from Honda for cars manufactured almost over a span of a decade and now this. Whats going on?
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Old 20th September 2015, 14:19   #25
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

ARAI is the Indian equivalent of EPA. ALL the vehicles that will be manufactured and sold in India will need "type approval" from ARAI, where certain predefined number of samples are sent to clear the tests.

Once the tests are cleared and vehicles are certified by ARAI, NO deviations are allowed on the vehicle specs. Older gen carburetted engines could be easily tampered with, hence, the ECU / FI became mandatory to make sure tampering with fueling would be difficult.

This VW case is a clear example of willfully fooling the system.

When bodies like NGT talk about banning 10+ year old diesels on blanket basis, ignoring already established processes to weed out polluting vehicles, such dubious and devious means by manufacturers adopted to pip the system simply proves that bodies like NGT are in neanderthal era, and such laws simply wont help clean our environment.

Having said this, I have also seen the other side of the story. Its nice to make a law telling so and so target value must be achieved by so and so year, but no one tells how

I worked for a major automobile technology company about a decade ago. When automobile companies start an engine project, the primary goal is always to meet the emission norms when the engine goes into production, may be 5 years later.

Literally hundreds of Injector nozzle / Piston (different bowl configurations for swirl) / Pump / Pressure / number of injections per cycle / duration of main injection / timing / pre and post injection timing combinations are tried, at different load and speed of engines.

Such tests have to be carried out on suitably equipped dynamometers (certified and accredited by ARAI) which are not available with all manufacturers, owing to investment reasons.

When you know you are racing to meet a deadline and many parameters, and you know your competitors are also having the same goals, there is a good chance of a compromise.

I have seen that Indian manufacturers with whom I worked, took these emission regulations very seriously, and the company with which I worked, never compromised on integrity.

As the founder of that company once said "Rather lose money than trust".
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Old 20th September 2015, 14:45   #26
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
This is staggering news given the sheer audacity of the exercise, the volumes involved and the fact that this is the workhorse 2 litre diesel engine used across VAG. Frankly makes all other corporate 'lies' like the GM ignition switch case, Takata airbag case, Firestone rollover case etc seem small!
Not really. Cheating emissions tests will not cause any direct loss to human life, unlike the Takata airbag issue, tyre bursting of the Explorer and the GM ignition switch issue. With that being said,its also not acceptable by any means.
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Old 20th September 2015, 15:53   #27
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by autocrat View Post
. Older gen carburetted engines could be easily tampered with, hence, the ECU / FI became mandatory to make sure tampering with fueling would be difficult.

This VW case is a clear example of willfully fooling the system.
I don't think tampering was the reason for ECU and FI. And if anything 'tampering' or fiddling with an electronically controlled engine is a whole lot easier then with a carburettor engine. You don't even need to open up the hood, just plug in a lap top!

I still like to understand the technical details what is happening here before I pass any judgement.

Jeroen
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Old 20th September 2015, 16:04   #28
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I don't think tampering was the reason for ECU and FI. And if anything 'tampering' or fiddling with an electronically controlled engine is a whole lot easier then with a carburettor engine. You don't even need to open up the hood, just plug in a lap top!

I still like to understand the technical details what is happening here before I pass any judgement.

Jeroen
Hello Jeroen,
I do wish it's as easy as you say it is, may be easy for those who know it and access the tools

But for a carb engine, just turn a few screws, or just use a bigger jet, any roadside mechanic will do that.

The primary reason for switch to FI is emission control.

Even mechanical diesel pumps can be easily tampered to deliver higher quantity. That's why you see overloaded goods vehicles emitting black smoke barely chugging along, because they don't know injecting diesel without necessary quantity of air is counterproductive.

Last edited by autocrat : 20th September 2015 at 16:06.
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Old 20th September 2015, 16:33   #29
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The sheer audacity and scale of this scam is staggering. The other issues referred to, were cases where the manufactured discovered an issue in a production car and did not take steps to address the issue in a timely manner, until it snowballed (Toyota unintended acceleration, airbag issue, faulty switch etc). But in this case, VW intentionally added a cheat device across their entire model range, and kept doing it until discovered by authorities. This puts it in a category of its own.
Even highly respected, global manufacturers are not beyond reproach ?
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Old 20th September 2015, 16:40   #30
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

VW's media release regarding the investigation:http://media.vw.com/release/1064/

Quote:
Volkswagen Group of America, Inc., Volkswagen AG and Audi AG received today notice from the US Environmental Protection Agency, US Department of Justice and the California Air Resources Board of an investigation related to certain emissions compliance matters. As environmental protection and sustainability are among Volkswagen's strategic corporate objectives, the company takes this matter very seriously and is cooperating with the investigation.

Volkswagen is committed to fixing this issue as soon as possible. We want to assure customers and owners of these models that their automobiles are safe to drive, and we are working to develop a remedy that meets emissions standards and satisfies our loyal and valued customers. Owners of these vehicles do not need to take any action at this time.

Last edited by noopster : 21st September 2015 at 11:28. Reason: Posted the media release as a quote since it is short
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