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Old 1st October 2015, 03:15   #376
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Default All for just savings of 335$ per car!

All this because VW's cost controllers wanted to save 300 Euros /335$ per car!

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Old 1st October 2015, 09:28   #377
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
It would have to be buy-back and scrap. The publicity outcome of dumping them on the poorest end of the market would be even worse than now.

Perhaps they could do a refit, and then resell. Might result in some great bargains! But, if we talking about a hypothetical buy-back, I'd see it leading to publicly audited destruction. Bring on the crushers!
Here, the issue is that they are dealing with 11 million cars. If fitting adblu on all of them would cost $400 per vehicle, that in itself would cost VW - $ 4.5 billion. VW will not be able to afford the whole process of buying, fixing and reselling. They'll end up using up all their cash reserves for the sake of liquidity. And I'm not even considering the fines they'll have to pay in each of the countries that they have sold these cars.

Last edited by amalji : 1st October 2015 at 09:33.
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Old 1st October 2015, 09:50   #378
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

For VW buying back the car and calling the crushers means losing probably the manufacturing cost of two cars that includes replacement. Add a little bit more for actually getting the car to the buyer. To me it saves a whole lot of money over recalling, wasting the time at service centres that may actually service other cars and also the labour cost to fix which is not a simple fix for sure.

But as Thad said, the number crunching is critical and more so replacing the car can continue to win faith of customers and VW is currently going down the drains. It will be a miracle to save VW as a company.
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Old 1st October 2015, 12:03   #379
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Default Re: All for just savings of 335$ per car!

Quote:
Originally Posted by johannskaria View Post
All this because VW's cost controllers wanted to save 300 Euros /335$ per car!
Unfortunate, but true. Save 300 Euros on the emissions solution, another 300 by using lower grade interior material (previous-gen Jetta had superior quality), 10 Euro by not giving USB / AUX to the mid-variant, 150 Euros by skipping climate control, 10 Euros on the boot hinge cladding etc. etc. And voila - you are looking at a net saving of 3000 Euro per car! Bean counters are happy, cost targets met, promotion guaranteed.

The current generation Jetta was built to strict cost targets. It's an accepted fact that the 6th generation Jetta is cheaper to produce than the 5th gen which had a noticeably better build + quality. VW wanted better volumes with this car and reduce the price premium over the Corolla, Civic and gang in the USA.

VW has been the world's largest car manufacturer, but the management gets a lot of heat for its awful position in the world's biggest car market - the USA.
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Old 1st October 2015, 12:42   #380
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All bean counters are not created equal. People like Robert McNamara (Ford) are quite few.
It has normally been seen that a parochial obsession with numbers is not usually the best way to create a product while overlooking other considerations like design, aesthetics and customer perception.
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Old 1st October 2015, 14:48   #381
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by johannskaria View Post
All this because VW's cost controllers wanted to save 300 Euros /335$ per car!

... ... ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Unfortunate, but true. Save 300 Euros on the emissions solution, another 300 by using lower grade interior material (previous-gen Jetta had superior quality), 10 Euro by not giving USB / AUX to the mid-variant, 150 Euros by skipping climate control, 10 Euros on the boot hinge cladding etc. etc. And voila - you are looking at a net saving of 3000 Euro per car! Bean counters are happy, cost targets met, promotion guaranteed.

... ... ...
One of the few bits of economics class that I didn't sleep through, and remember...

The lecturer told us that, at a certain multi-national car company, any production-line change costing more than 20 cents per vehicle had to get board-meeting approval. After giving us all a chance to react, he reminded us how many millions of cars they made.

All those savings add up to a vast amount of money.
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Old 1st October 2015, 15:16   #382
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Many interesting observations on this subject in the Economist magazine:
1. Winterkorn had to go. He is an engineer famous for his attention to detail, if he didn't know about the deceptive software, he should have.
2. Selling large number of clean diesels in the US was a vital part in getting to be and stay the largest in the world. That grand strategy that Winterkorn had overseen now lies in ruins.
3. A hefty fine on the company is inevitable but isn't enough. Individuals responsible for corporate crimes must also face prosecution. Although they haven't as yet, American authorities should also prosecute culpable GM managers for the recent ignition switch defect.
4. The VW skulduggery also raises a question over other European car makers because in Europe emission testing is a farce.
5. This may be the death of diesel - if so, so be it. It may at least lead, after so many false starts, to the electric car age.

On item 4 above, why is European testing a farce?
1. Carmakers commission their own tests, under auspices of independent testing organisations that are commercial enterprises competing for business.
2. "Optimising" test procedures is a way to win car companies as clients.
3. Tested cars are modified to be as frugal as possible. Things that add weight like sound systems are left out. Drag is reduced by removing wing mirrors and taping up cracks between panels. Special lubricants make the engines run more smoothly. Low resistance tyres are overinflated with a special mixture of gas.Alternators are disconnected and the resultant flat battery in the end of the test is not a problem.
4. To top this, at the end no one checks if the certified result is true or not!
5. Icing on this cake is that regulators tolerate software a bit like VW's, that spots when a car is being tested and switches the engine into "economy" mode.

These are the stated reasons why fuel efficiency that European motorists achieve on the road is around 40% short of car maker promises.

Reading all this, it is not surprising that the other makes are completely silent on the VW drama. And it tells us that we ought not to be hyper critical of what happens in India. Things are better elsewhere, but not dramatically so.
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Old 1st October 2015, 15:22   #383
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
This may be the death of diesel - if so, so be it. It may at least lead, after so many false starts, to the electric car age.
I would love to see this happen. But alas, I think the oil conglomerates will not allow that to happen so easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Reading all this, it is not surprising that the other makes are completely silent on the VW drama. And it tells us that we ought not to be hyper critical of what happens in India. Things are better elsewhere, but not dramatically so.
This is true isn't it? I mean, I don't remember reading the views of any other car manufacturer on this fiasco. Maybe they are all shivering inside hoping they don't get caught out?
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Old 1st October 2015, 16:59   #384
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Yes, the oil companies will do their utmost to stall, and in this I inaccurately recall a saying about tech progress and how the world changes: Change in the next ten years will be a lot less then you expect it to be, but change in the next thirty years will be dramatically more than what you expect will happen in that time.

I may have the ten/thirty wrong, but the message remains as I read it somewhere.
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Old 1st October 2015, 18:00   #385
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Ford and Volvo also accused:

TOI

Quote:
According to the German motoring organization Adac, the Volvo S60, Renault's Espace Energy and the Jeep Renegade all exceeded legal European emission limits for nitrogen oxide by more than 10 times.

It also found that the Nissan-made X-Trail produced 14 times more than permitted, although Nissan insisted Adac had tested the wrong car.

Adac, the world's second-biggest motoring organization, used a strict new emissions standard that will not come into force in Europe for another two years.

The findings reveal that the car emissions scandal extends far beyond Volkswagen and encompasses many other manufacturers including Mercedes, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot.
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Old 1st October 2015, 18:05   #386
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

There is one thing that has been bothering me ever since i came to know about Dieselgate, What happens to the consumer ? The company is getting fined and its in damage control mode. But what does the average Indian consumer do now(Those who bought the diesel VWs) ? Is the 1.6L TDI a EA 189 type engine ? If we wait for the code to be removed , how will resale value be affected? Is it better to sell the car while people may remain ignorant in India? If someone could address these issues, that would be great.

Thank you ,
Amogh
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Old 1st October 2015, 18:23   #387
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I just saw the below update for TDI Engine in Volkswagen India website. Sorry if this has already been posted earlier.

Quote:
TDI engine

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

At the outset, we wish to clarify that we sincerely regret the inconvenience that may have been caused to you due to recent developments.

We completely understand that you have some urgent questions relating to purported irregularities in the software installed in diesel engines.

Please be rest assured that we are working intensively on clarifying the situation and hence at the moment, we are unable to provide definitive responses to all of your detailed questions. At the same time, we ask for your kind co-operation and understanding.

We also assure you that as soon as we have clarifications, we will touch base with you.

We hold great responsibility towards our products and customers and we write with conviction that all affected vehicles are safe from a technical standpoint and are in perfect roadworthy condition.

We therefore again ask for your patience, kind co-operation and understanding in this matter. We have set up a dedicated hotline to register any queries that you may have.

You can either call us at: 18002090909 / 18001020909 or write to us at customer.care@volkswagen.co.in
Link:
TDI Engine

I hope they reach out to the customers once they decide on the remedial actions for Indian Customers.
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Old 1st October 2015, 18:44   #388
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by _raVan_ View Post
Ford and Volvo also accused:

TOI
Not at all surprised. All were having their trotters in the same trough by the looks of it. As for a comment about the renault and the Nissan they are the same stable. Any news about the ubiquitous FIAT origin Multijet?
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Old 1st October 2015, 18:58   #389
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

If other manufactures are also afraid that means compliance to the emission standards is far to difficult / costly.
Why such standards have been kept if none of the players could comply.
Cheers
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Old 1st October 2015, 19:27   #390
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I have copied verbatim an article on this matter from Quora.com. This is by Mr Richard Routhier.

Quote:
" Why should it be recalled, this is a made up scandal. The EPA wants to put the blame on NOx emissions but wants us to forget that using the diesel engine to produce less NOX increase tremendously the amount of hydrocarbons and reduces the mileage of the car. The question is more can we accept a little more NOx and it return get a car with a much better mileage per gallon which reduces all other pollutants.
Because in the mode in which VW diesel were working we did get the best mileage and the lowest pollution on everything but NOx. And why did EPA selected to reduce Nox emissions simple because Americans just cannot make a decent diesel, this legislation is to bring down a foreign corporation because American are not able to compete with.
It is much preferable to do like GM who sloppily waited to have a 100 people dead due to their faulty switch before reacting, they got a fine under 1 billion dollars and now they would like to fine VW for 35 billions. It smells like the Concorde vs Boeing, if Concorde had been Boeing made they would have been everywhere

If you are registered, you will get a recall. You would be better not to upgrade, the performance will not be as good ans you would end up spending more on diesel fuel.

If NOx emissions were so important, it would be pretty simple to lower them, make sure the boat transport does not emit any because right now they burn bunker oil and emit as much NOx as all the cars together."

Source
Sets me thinking..does this hold any water at all? Does the amount of Nox emitted by VW cars are offset by the reduction of other pollutants contributing to global warming? Any scientific explanation for this?

Regards

Last edited by Technocrat : 2nd October 2015 at 02:37. Reason: Added quoted text in quotes & also added source, always mention full source, thanks
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