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Old 4th October 2015, 22:42   #421
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Default Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

We have all been following the VW test scandal. While VW might represent a small fraction of sales in India the sell very competitive cars. Technically advanced and good ride. The scandal has various facets and there is still no official follow up either from VW India or the Govt w.r.t the impact on engine variants sold in India. However as owners or VW cars or prospective buyers, new and used alike this affects the future of ownership and sentiments around it, both financially and perception-wise. This poll is to find out the current understanding and the thoughts around how this affects scene.

Would like to use this thread as a poll only thread, as there is another thread of discussion live on this topic.
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Old 5th October 2015, 06:30   #422
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

France to consider phasing out diesel tax breaks article published by Reuters
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0RY0T120151004

"France is considering raising taxes on diesel over the next five years to end an advantage over gasoline and encourage drivers to choose cleaner cars, Environment Minister Segolene Royal said.

Diesel's image has been tarnished by health warnings and in the past month by revelations that Volkswagen cheated on emissions tests in the United States, putting countries like France that have promoted diesel cars in recent decades in an awkward position.

Royal, who is also responsible for transport, has in recent weeks rejected calls to ban diesel or end its tax breaks, but on Sunday backed the idea of phasing out the fuel's tax advantage.

"We need to start preparing our move out of diesel right now," she told France 5 television. "We should phase out diesel's (tax) advantage over five years."

She said that the fuel tax levied on diesel was currently 0.15 euros per liter lower than on gasoline.

Progressive increases in diesel taxes would be discussed during the debate on France's 2016 budget bill, and should be offset by tax breaks for buying cleaner-fuel vehicles, she said.

Diesel models account for more than half of the cars on French roads, although their share in new-car sales has fallen in the past three years.

The fuel has faced growing criticism since the World Health Organization in 2012 classified diesel engine exhaust as carcinogenic. City authorities have announced moves to restrict the fuel's use in vehicles in London and Paris.

The Volkswagen scandal has also undermined the traditional argument in favor of diesel that it has lower carbon emissions than gasoline."

Last edited by tj123 : 5th October 2015 at 06:30. Reason: Typo
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Old 5th October 2015, 08:07   #423
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I think its about time everyone did it. Higher capacity diesels will take a long time to meet emission standards that are needed to improve air quality. With turbo, hybrid etc the torque needs for petrol engines could be met.

Hopefully passenger vehicles will move away from diesel in short term and alternaltive sources will pick up quickly in long term.
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Old 5th October 2015, 09:20   #424
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

The scandal was to bye pass the stringent regulations in the US and doesn't necessarily have any impact on India.
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Old 5th October 2015, 09:25   #425
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Volkswagen engineers have confessed about installing cheat devices in the company's cars, according to German newspaper Bild am Sonntag's Sunday edition.

Quote:
Bild am Sonntag said the employees told an internal investigation that they had been involved in the affair, which came to light last month.

"Several engineers stated that they installed the deception software in 2008," the newspaper said.

Bild did not reveal their identities or say how many had made the admission. But it said their statements had so far failed to unmask those who masterminded the scam.

The engineers said the EA 189 engine, developed by VW in 2005, could not have complied with pollution caps and cost targets without the deception.
ET Auto
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Old 5th October 2015, 09:36   #426
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirWind View Post
The scandal was to bye pass the stringent regulations in the US and doesn't necessarily have any impact on India.
DO our standards really vary 10-40 times from US/EU standards?
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Old 5th October 2015, 09:52   #427
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

So far whatever I have read about this scandal as it unfolded , here is what I feel in a nutshell -
1) VW has made a serious breach of consumer confidence by doing the software tweak which passed off diesel cars are clean. This is not acceptable. Maybe others are doing it but VW got caught in US.
2) Its a non-US brand so all this negative publicity was multiplied many folds in the US itself.
3) VW is a giant with lots of strong product offerings. This is a storm they brought upon themselves and they will have to weather it out. They will make it out but then they would have changed.
4) The scandal hit at the wrong time when VW was making strong progress and had overtaken Toyota. But the VW market share will drop and this in turn will move them down from the leader board.
5) There have been many safety related recalls by other brands which could actually endanger lives. All those have passed and those brands survive today and are growing. VW's case although not acceptable is not about safety. Their cars are still safe and sound as ever. The fix would involve a quick workshop trip to update the software. In the US people have a tendency to sue and then settle out of court. Here although the projected cost is 11 bn USD , I am sure after sorting out the various lawsuits by the law firm the amount will reduce considerably.
6) VW will take a long time to recover in the US again with their core VW brand.
7) Worldwide finding results are awaited and hopefully there have been no mistake on purpose there.

Last edited by ambivalent_98 : 5th October 2015 at 09:55.
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Old 5th October 2015, 09:54   #428
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

Scandal may be in the US, but it still effects brand image.

Going by horror stories of Skoda who knows what other stuff they do to cars (VW/Audi) in India!
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Old 5th October 2015, 10:07   #429
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

If a company is bold enough to cheat the government on emission norms and have absolutely no concern about Global warming or polluting the environment, I doubt if they'd have any regard or consideration for their customers.

Over anything, it puts a huge question mark on their integrity and their attitude towards the environment and its customers. Me being a person who avoids use of plastic bags, buys tin cans to avoid a plastic PET bottle, carries a backpack while going for groceries shopping, would never be able to forgive VW, ever !

German engineering. VW now comes across to my mind, as a student we all know got the university rank by using counterfeit methods... That degree has no value now !

Last edited by aravind.anand : 5th October 2015 at 10:09.
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Old 5th October 2015, 10:15   #430
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

It has to be remembered once & for all, that the only scandal here is VW's software "tweak" wherein the sensors detect if the engine is being tested for emissions based on a few factors like no steering input and varying degrees of throttle input over different gears. The computer then adapts the car by decreasing emissions and lowering the engine boost to the wheels (which won't be perceived by a driver when its over a dynamometer). Back on the road, the car adapts itself back to its non-testing state i.e more power & at least over a dozen times the emission based on vehicle model. This has been admitted by enough people within VW so its correct to term this as VW Software Scandal rather than Dieselgate, VW Diesel Scam & the likes.

For a long time now it's been known that diesel emits dangerous amounts of NOx, petrol is a polluter too but does not emit NOx even close to the levels of diesel because its easier to burn quickly. Also there are limitations to what can be done to make diesel cleaner, larger engine sizes and big power ultimately result in more diesel burning per mile/hour, and more diesel burning would relate directly to more emissions. A few questions still linger :

1) How many vehicles tested of VW, had the AdBlue AUS32 solution enabled in the vehicles, so as to convert nitrogen oxides into harmless emissions.
2) How many vehicles did not have the AUS32 option, and what is the emission standard limit for such vehicles?
3) Is the emission standard more stringent in vehicles having AUS32 solution vs those not having it?
4) Since Aqueous Urea Solution is the only edge for vehicles being fitted with it to maintain lower emissions, is it mandated by law that the solution be strictly filled up & monitored suitably?

In this case mere paper pushing is not the solution, unless a tight law is in place to ensure real-world emissions are throttled. Next out of nowhere there will be a study which shows bigger engines emit more pollution and manufacturers should be fined for doing so. Why not start spreading awareness now rather than bring out draconian laws in an instant? The only sane way to start is by setting limits and constantly improving them, based on various engine sizes & fuel types and also incentivising/penalizing, by monetary means, such cars.
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Old 5th October 2015, 10:19   #431
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

Its a question of getting obsolete technology vs getting the most contemporary technology that VW has been providing, at least in Indian automotive industry. They may have faltered in the US, but in India, I don't think pollution benchmarks are that stringent.

Plus what would you buy if not VW. I think they have the most sorted automobiles in the Indian market today.

Simple test, on a highway, drive continuously behind a vw diesel for a fair distance, and then drive behind another brand for a fair distance. The soot released from the tail pipes will clearly indicate which is better.
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Old 5th October 2015, 10:24   #432
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by tj123 View Post
1. France to consider phasing out diesel tax breaks article published by Reuters

"France is considering raising taxes on diesel over the next five years to end an advantage over gasoline and encourage drivers to choose cleaner cars, Environment Minister Segolene Royal said.

2. Diesel's image has been tarnished by health warnings and in the past month by revelations that Volkswagen cheated on emissions tests in the United States, putting countries like France that have promoted diesel cars in recent decades in an awkward position.

Royal, who is also responsible for transport, has in recent weeks rejected calls to ban diesel or end its tax breaks, but on Sunday backed the idea of phasing out the fuel's tax advantage.

3. "We need to start preparing our move out of diesel right now," she told France 5 television. "We should phase out diesel's (tax) advantage over five years."

She said that the fuel tax levied on diesel was currently 0.15 euros per liter lower than on gasoline.

Progressive increases in diesel taxes would be discussed during the debate on France's 2016 budget bill, and should be offset by tax breaks for buying cleaner-fuel vehicles, she said.

Diesel models account for more than half of the cars on French roads, although their share in new-car sales has fallen in the past three years.

The fuel has faced growing criticism since the World Health Organization in 2012 classified diesel engine exhaust as carcinogenic. City authorities have announced moves to restrict the fuel's use in vehicles in London and Paris.

The Volkswagen scandal has also undermined the traditional argument in favor of diesel that it has lower carbon emissions than gasoline."
1. I feel Diesel should be slightly costlier considering its higher calorific value. It is so in UK, Switzerland and I think Germany.

As for pollution diesel pollution is different from petrol, so both have their pluses and minuses.

2. Royal seems to be powered by the Anti-Diesel lobby. If VW cheats it is no reason to try and dump the entire technology! Sounds like the controversy in India when it is rumoured that the CSE was powered by Maruti!!

3. Again possibly poppycock.

I am a hardcore petrolhead but respect Diesels for what they are.
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Old 5th October 2015, 10:41   #433
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepfusion View Post
Its a question of getting obsolete technology vs getting the most contemporary technology that VW has been providing, at least in Indian automotive industry. They may have faltered in the US, but in India, I don't think pollution benchmarks are that stringent.

Plus what would you buy if not VW. I think they have the most sorted automobiles in the Indian market today.

Simple test, on a highway, drive continuously behind a vw diesel for a fair distance, and then drive behind another brand for a fair distance. The soot released from the tail pipes will clearly indicate which is better.
Really??
No.They are. At least stringent enough for VW to flunk magnificently if the same engines are using the same bypass here.
CO NOx HC+NOx PM
Euro6 0.5 0.08 0.17 0.005
BS4 0.5 0.25 0.3 0.025


Looking at those figures, you'd be better off with ANYTHING other than a VW.
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Old 5th October 2015, 10:54   #434
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

I side with petrol engines whenever there is a choice between petrol and diesel. The resale values are bound to hit for diesel engines, mainly due to the environmental push given by bodies such as NGT. Apart from this, any time, Government might decide to withdraw the subsidies offered for diesel.
This, combined with the initial difference of purchase price, makes Diesel engine, economically not a very sound buy.
Pollution created by diesel engine is not one of my top reasons because petrol engines are equally or only slightly less polluting. If we are really concerned about environment, we should think really big. (Electric cars for eg, then again the pollution caused by generation of electricity is still there)
The above is the only reasons (specifically - diesel vs petrol) I would go for petrol engine, any brand.
Regarding VW cheating emission norms, I believe, it really does not matter in India. I would be really surprised, if our emission norms are that good, forcing company like VW to resort to cheating. (P.S. Businesses are there for making money. Expecting them to do anything else - philanthropy, caring for customers' well being, following a lot of norms etc are all just wishful thinking. Things will go on, until they cannot manage, cannot bribe, etc, and then they get caught.)
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Old 5th October 2015, 11:21   #435
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

Proves that company is a willful cheater. Will stay away from VW. GoI should check them here too.
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