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Old 20th September 2015, 16:47   #31
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Hello Jeroen,
I do wish it's as easy as you say it is, may be easy for those who know it and access the tools

But for a carb engine, just turn a few screws, or just use a bigger jet, any roadside mechanic will do that.

The primary reason for switch to FI is emission control.

Even mechanical diesel pumps can be easily tampered to deliver higher quantity. That's why you see overloaded goods vehicles emitting black smoke barely chugging along, because they don't know injecting diesel without necessary quantity of air is counterproductive.
Sure, without tools nothing happens, be it a screw driver or a lap top.

Just to be precise on this whole FI thing. Really depends on what we are talking about. In the 80's there were a whole bunch of cars produced with mechanical fuel injection. Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Triumph etc. Quite a few of those cars had their fuel injection systems replaced by carburettors to meet emission in the USA. So it really depends what we are comparing.

Straight from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Benefits
Benefits of fuel injection include smoother and more consistent transient throttle response, such as during quick throttle transitions, easier cold starting, more accurate adjustment to account for extremes of ambient temperatures and changes in air pressure, more stable idling, decreased maintenance needs, and better fuel efficiency.

Fuel injection also dispenses with the need for a separate mechanical choke, which on carburetor-equipped vehicles must be adjusted as the engine warms up to normal temperature. Furthermore, on spark ignition engines (direct) fuel injection has the advantage of being able to facilitate stratified combustion which have not been possible with carburetors.

It is only with the advent of multi-point fuel injection certain engine configurations such as inline five cylinder gasoline engines have become more feasible for mass production, as traditional carburetor arrangement with single or twin carburetors could not provide even fuel distribution between cylinders, unless a more complicated individual carburetor per cylinder is used.

Fuel injection systems are also able to operate normally regardless of orientation, whereas carburetors with floats are not able to operate upside down or in zero gravity, such as encountered on airplanes.

Environmental benefits
Fuel injection generally increases engine fuel efficiency. With the improved cylinder-to-cylinder fuel distribution of multi-point fuel injection, less fuel is needed for the same power output (when cylinder-to-cylinder distribution varies significantly, some cylinders receive excess fuel as a side effect of ensuring that all cylinders receive sufficient fuel).

Exhaust emissions are cleaner because the more precise and accurate fuel metering reduces the concentration of toxic combustion byproducts leaving the engine, and because exhaust cleanup devices such as the catalytic converter can be optimized to operate more efficiently since the exhaust is of consistent and predictable composition.
And then of course, the more nerdy and anal carburettor brigade will continue to argue that carburettor have the ability to atomise fuel better then any FI system on principle.

There are a few patents floating around on this one

http://www.google.co.in/patents/US1997497

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp...in_england.htm

I would say there are several reason why during the last 10-15-20 years just about all car engines, petrol and diesel, have moved to ECU and FI, Emission being one of the reasons/drivers behind this phenomena.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 20th September 2015 at 16:49.
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Old 20th September 2015, 19:56   #32
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I'll watch this subject closely. Seems like a typical case were US using its regulatory agencies tries to screw non-US companies and the media twists words to get most readership.

A system to cut down pollution when a stationary vehicle is revved without cause, is necessary and a good add-on. Its unfortunate if the pollution checks haven't gotten realistic since ever, come to think of it, how pathetic and unrealistic is pollution test procedure in India.

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Old 20th September 2015, 20:17   #33
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I'll watch this subject closely. Seems like a typical case were US using its regulatory agencies tries to screw non-US companies and the media twists words to get most readership.

How come this is EPA trying to screw Non- US company? Volkswagen has already accepted wrongdoing.
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Old 20th September 2015, 20:36   #34
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Volkswagen has already accepted wrongdoing.
Did I miss this? They said they will cooperate in investigation.

Where was this agreed that pollution cut down happens to avoid detection in tests? It happens in situations, but is it designed to avoid detection?

Lets wait and watch.
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Old 20th September 2015, 21:09   #35
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Default Volkswagen and Audi accused of cheating US Emissions Test

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Did I miss this? They said they will cooperate in investigation.



Where was this agreed that pollution cut down happens to avoid detection in tests? It happens in situations, but is it designed to avoid detection?



Lets wait and watch.

This is from their official press release link that is been shared by bhpian:

Volkswagen is committed to fixing this issue as soon as possible. We want to assure customers and owners of these models that their automobiles are safe to drive, and we are working to develop a remedy that meets emissions standards and satisfies our loyal and valued customers. Owners of these vehicles do not need to take any action at this time.

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Old 20th September 2015, 21:44   #36
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Absolutely unpardonable from VW ! Ripping off customers is one thing but fooling around with the regulator is completely another !!

BTW $ 18 B is a humongous amount. Need to wait and watch if the regulator is able to enforce this. I had heard that the automobile industry lobby is pretty strong..
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Old 20th September 2015, 22:01   #37
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I appreciate that VW has accepted the wrongdoing and is cooperating. VW CEO Martin Winterkorn has admitted it. Following is translated excerpt from Spiegel Online (http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/v...a-1053846.html).

The VW group has acknowledged massive exhaust tampering with their diesel models in the US. The US Environmental Protection Agency had the allegations on Friday charged. A company spokesman said: "We have given to the authority The facts true We are actively working with the Authority together..."

Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn announced a comprehensive explanation of the exhaust scandal. "Personally, I deeply regret that we have disappointed the trust of our customers and the public," Winterkorn said in Wolfsburg. "The events have for us on the board and for me personally highest priority."

VW ordered an external investigation. "It is clear that Volkswagen will not tolerate any violations of law or regulation of any kind," Winterkorn said. Volkswagen will do everything we can to regain trust. "We are working with the relevant authorities together openly and comprehensively in order to clarify the facts quickly and transparently in full," said the CEO.
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Old 21st September 2015, 09:53   #38
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Does anybody understand in real technical detail how VW allegedly does this trick?
How does it detect this EPA testing mode and what does it change in the engine performance/parameters so it become compliant?
Quoting and replying since I didn't see an answer to your question. If you haven't seen it yet, the letter to VW from EPA, does say how it does the trick. The ECU senses the Steering wheel position, engine start and run time etc etc.

Last edited by Rehaan : 22nd September 2015 at 19:29. Reason: As per report post.
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Old 21st September 2015, 10:01   #39
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The true colours of VW group are coming out.
First GM was caught selling non compliant engines in India. The fines in this case were not as hefty.

Now VW has accepted cheating to sell their engines in USA. I hope that fines in this case along with other punishment are hefty enough to close VW group.
For long they have been cheating the consumers and common people.
Also as this has happened in USA, I can see some class action suit coming against VW to compensate medical cost of a large number of people where illness can be traced to pollution.
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Old 21st September 2015, 10:24   #40
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I really wonder to what extent Indian manufacturers would probably 'cheating' unknown to us. The norms in India are dated corruption comes natural to many.
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Old 21st September 2015, 10:26   #41
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by nijelj View Post
Quoting and replying since I didn't see an answer to your question. If you haven't seen it yet, the letter to VW from EPA, does say how it does the trick. The ECU senses the Steering wheel position, engine start and run time etc etc. During the EPA testing, the steering wheel is not touched, since it runs on the Chassis dyno. The software could detect the non-moving steering wheel and throw the 'Switch'.
Yes, I did read that, that's the relative easy part, although if you think it through it must be a bit more complicated as what EPA claims. How to detect the difference between being stationary in a traffic jam and idling the engine and the same on the dyno?
Also, I might be wrong but I'm not sure the steering wheel sensors are hooked up to the ECU. Part of the ABS, so probably some brake module, rather then then the ECU, but I might be wrong. (Never worked on steering wheel sensors yet)

Also, most states have regular mandatory emissions checks on cars. That's not a dyno. Requires to take various emission measurement with the engine running at differernt RPMs. NOt sure how that would/is effected.

So the car knows its on a dyno, but from there on how do you they get different values out of the ECU when it comes to emissions? Do they change engine settings or manipulate the output data? Also, if this is all done in the ECU who would have designed such functions? I believe most VW ECU's are Bosch? Are these standard functions, if not who designed and implemented them on the VW ECU's. Bosch? VW?

So the EPA 'explanation' doesnt really say anything at all. I'm sure the detailled insight will start popping up over the net soon.

BR Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 21st September 2015 at 10:45.
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Old 21st September 2015, 11:22   #42
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I thought the Germans were quite responsible when it comes to pollution but it is just isn't. This would bring a very bad reputation to the VW and German car makers in the US. Unlike India, US and Europe are very concerned about CO2 / emission figures.

There are strong anti-VW comments going on in US car forums

http://wot.motortrend.com/epa_allege...di_models.html

@TJeff Agree.. Was going to buy a new CC. Not anymore. No trust in VW anymore

mopar_srt
Electronics and software: Similar. And no matter what you say, VW didn't play by the rules and got busted. I hope they get the full $18B fine and forced out of the US market(barely here anyways..)

Mario Bertone
VW stupid German company, they thought they weren't going to get caught,they think they're so smart and superior, I'm glad they got exposed and they want to be N#1,ya way to go..back of the line,they just got a big reality check


MiGS 23 With a heavy heart I cancelled my TDI Sportwagen order yesterday. I guess thedream of a 50 MPG wagon with a manual transmission was true good to be true, literally!
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Old 21st September 2015, 11:30   #43
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

" the software detects when the car is going through emission control test and turns full emission controls on while connected to testing machine and returns to normal mode once disconnected from the testing machine"

I fail to understand why would VW go through all the trouble of disabling the emission control mode once the vehicle has done the test? Why "return it to normal"? Is it that emission control mode lowers the power output and that would be a problem with the customer's since they will perceive it to be an under-powered vehicle? But does it make that much of a difference?

I have a hunch that some activist/senator at US may have some agenda against the VAG ... (yeah these things happen all across the globe, it is not limited to India only)

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Old 21st September 2015, 11:35   #44
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Shocking. This can't be a one-off incident surely- looks like it's a sophisticated scam that surely needed to have involvement from top management.

$18bn in fines will ruin VW. But I can't bring myself to feel sympathetic. The emission levels in under normal driving conditions are 40X the limit! Considering how seriously these norms are taken (and rightly so, given the state of our environment) this is a complete breach of trust by the company.

Am now wondering how much gaming goes on in India. If this goes on in the most developed auto market in the world, what hope is there for us?
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Old 21st September 2015, 11:42   #45
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Yes VW has been caught cheating, hand in the cookie jar! Still, doesn't mean that we can't salvage anything from this debacle! Here's a really nice video depicting how Hitler reacts to the VW-EPA Scandal Dieselgate. Be that as it may, it's extremely disgusting to know that Germans would do this. Samsung was caught red-handed more than once last year as reviewers repeatedly discovered evidence that the company’s phones and tablets were artificially boosting benchmark scores. Really stupid how VW has taken a page out of Samsung.

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