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Old 5th October 2015, 18:01   #451
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

I own a Skoda Rapid. I'm not really worried about the impact. In India most people don't care about ABS and Airbags. Do you think they will care about emissions?
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Old 5th October 2015, 19:18   #452
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

For me the issue here is not just about the wee bit more or millions of tonnes more pollution added by the errant company. It is about a company deliberately cheating the world at large. Let me make it clear that I am not being sanctimonious about it.
We can keep making excuses for them like we keep making excuses for any type of criminal act in society by saying other companies or individuals also cheat and commit crimes so they deserve to be condoned. Laws are made to be bent or broken, taxes are meant to be evaded etc etc because so many folk do it and get away.
But imagine a world where everyone cheats and defrauds - do we really want this?
I think a mega conglomerate like VW with its array of marquees had a very special responsibility to be an example to be followed. And there they have failed - miserably. So they deserve to be punished and the quantum commensurate to their size and stature.

Last edited by wilful : 5th October 2015 at 19:47.
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Old 5th October 2015, 19:22   #453
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

I guess i would buy a VW car , for me i cannot see any alternate for desirable diesel automatic in any range below 20 lacs. But only concern is what neeravnaik quoted "this is very likely to impact their investment and support to developing market like India in terms of service, providing parts etc. So even if their vehicles are good owners may face long term trouble if the company faces tough time." Since i have time for my next car "Will delay the purchase, wait for the outcome. VW is still choice no 1."
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Old 5th October 2015, 19:32   #454
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

I don't have expertise in this area, but here is the search around that lead me to the following analysis.

The US EPA Specification can be found here.
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/l.../tier2stds.htm

To notice here is the bin 9 onwards (like 9, 10 etc). Bin 9 allows .3 NOx. If you read the website the .3 was supposed to be stopped by 2006.

India is on BS4 now and the sheets are here,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat...sion_standards

The NOx levels are .3 that maps to the bin 9 which is already 10 years old in the US. The next BS5 implementation is supposed to be in 2020 and BS6 or 7 that will map to the US norms today will I guess be beyond one of two resale cycles of a VW car, unless the Govt of India suddenly thinks environment is more priority than economics. The emission in the US which we can mark to bin 4 or 0.04 to be used currently. Why, because if you see the implementation by 2010 the limit proposed is 0.07 that maps to bin 5. If you extrapolate to 2015 then I would assume there will be one step extra, so bin 4 pointing to 0.04. Yes, this is not a very accurate calculation but it underlines some parity with the standards in which the tests have failed v/s BS4 that we live in and that which will not change in the next 5 or so years. If the NOx is 40 times which is 0.04 X 40 = 1.6 this fails BS4 too if a tail pipe test is done.

A More consolidated info is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksw...sion_standards

My VW dealer said there will be a press release in India by VW very soon. This will state that the cars are as per BS4 standards. I am sure this will not again give the full picture. How will VW solve this? And more so how will all the small diesel engines that are claiming to save the day in India solve it. Small Diesels will fail the NOx test, it takes a lot of engineering to achieve the pollution norms and small diesel are in small cars which have a lesser selling price. Is the story of "acche din" for D - India (not digital, but Dieselization) over?
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Old 5th October 2015, 19:36   #455
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

This incident is brand image downer.
The question we should be asking ourselves is, if a company can dare cheat Governments (and that too the strongest one in the world, no less), what respect/ethic would they have about consumers/individuals?
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Old 5th October 2015, 19:38   #456
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Volkswagen began rigging select engines from 2008, according to the latest unveil of alarming facts by German daily Bild am Sonntag.

Quote:
After interviewing engineers who participate in engine development, internal auditors have determined that the illegal software was installed beginning in 2008, according to the people familiar with the inquiry, which is still at a preliminary stage.

By then, Volkswagen had spent several years developing a new diesel engine line, known as the EA 189, which included both 1.6- and 2.0-liter versions, and was preparing for production. The EA 189 was one of the most important engines in the company, destined not only for millions of Volkswagen-brand cars but also for a wide variety of other brands from the parent Volkswagen Group, like Audi, Skoda and Seat, as well as some light utility vehicles.

Significantly, the engines were also scheduled to be used in Golf, Passat, Beetle and Jetta models that were to be sold in the United States as part of a push to market "clean diesel" a concept promoted as a way for drivers to be environmentally responsible while enjoying high fuel economy and peppy performance.

But according to the internal inquiry, the engines proved unable to live up to that standard and meet air-quality emissions standards. Volkswagen's big bet on the future was poised to fail.

It was not yet clear how many countries' emissions standards the new motor would have been able to meet without cheating. But the U.S., with its limits on diesel emissions that are much stricter than those of the European Union, was one of the most important.

Cars from the 2009 model year were the first to arrive in the U.S. with the new motors. By that point, it would have been a severe setback to cancel production and go back to the drawing board.
ET Auto (very interesting article - must read!)
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Old 5th October 2015, 20:48   #457
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

VW makes superb vehicles
VW cheated
Possibly VW vehicles sold in India Do pass India stds.
Unless Skoda and Audi have actually poorer real world performance than VW they too should fail the same tests. But how?
We do register 50 Yr old fiats and Ambys again and again so why should this affect the resale or registration aspect. Yes perceptions could impact resale value. The buyers will be lucky and sellers not so.
MOST manufacturers have indulged in cheating in various aspects over the years and on more serious issue related to safety in general. Even Volvo cheated in ads about their vehicle safety and strength and then ford, Toyota etc all have been forced to admit safety issues and do recalls at times more than a decade after they first knew internally
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Old 5th October 2015, 20:49   #458
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

My point of view as a owner of VW car
  1. This is a willful violation of law of the land
  2. Demonstration of no integrity
  3. Mislead the customer
  4. Mislead the Emission Testing Authority with arrogance ( VW had opportunity to correct themselves few years back but chose not to do)

I am not an expert at law, but for me, this is a criminal act from the worlds largest automobile manufacturer.

Consequences of this for the owners of VW cars in India could be (worst case scenario)
  • VW's focus on Indian market given the enormity of situation they are forced into (cost of recall, cost of law suit, humongous effort required to manage the situation etc.)
  • Shutdown of dealership / workshops due to poor sales. This will put question mark on the availability of spares and qualified service personal to service the car (A.S.S is not great anyways)
  • Hit on the resale value or there may not be any takers for used VW cars

The best case scenario (wishful thinking) could be that VW strengthens its focus in developing market as they may not be able to gain any sales volume in US and may be some of the countries in Europe.

ARAI investigation may come out clean on VW Indian cars, but that will not put to rest the doubts and loss of confidence of the owners / prospective buyers.

IMO, it is better to switch away from VW at the earliest possible opportunity to save few bucks and gain peace of mind .
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Old 5th October 2015, 23:34   #459
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by graaja View Post
The "VIN check" web page is in German. I had to use Google translate to convert it to English.

Below is the screenshot of what I got (with Google Translate) for my Jetta's VIN number. The translation is a little different though
They have used Google translate.

Thomas Zahn google translated to Thomas Dental.
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Old 5th October 2015, 23:57   #460
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

A BBC Newsnight report from Dec 2014 itself indicated that cars were rigged to improve emission test results. So its not just the EPA, VAG and the testers who were aware of this, but also the media!

Last edited by arunphilip : 6th October 2015 at 00:00.
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Old 6th October 2015, 01:18   #461
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Interesting marketing from Fiat!

Name:  Capture vw.JPG
Views: 712
Size:  75.4 KB

Quote:
Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV is seeking to lure customers away from Volkswagen AG with rebates of as much as 1,500 euros ($1,700) in Italy amid the German competitor’s woes over cheating on emissions tests.

Fiat Chrysler is offering the discounts on top of other incentives on the trade-in of a car from any of Volkswagen’s brands, according to an internal memo published in Il Giornale daily that was confirmed by dealers.
Bloomberg article link

Meanwhile in India

Name:  Capture vw2.JPG
Views: 655
Size:  78.4 KB

ET article link

Also found this today!
VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test-12079253_832329376886949_4207647637847931317_n.jpg

Last edited by johannskaria : 6th October 2015 at 01:43.
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Old 6th October 2015, 05:12   #462
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Top VW exec warns emissions crisis could kill company

As reported in USA today http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...isis/73356630/


Volkswagen Group's incoming chairman warned managers that the automaker's diesel-emission scandal poses "an existence-threatening crisis for the company" as new details emerged about how the debacle unfolded.

VW finance chief Hans Dieter Poetsch, who is expected to be named chairman this week, told managers last week that despite the predicament in which the company finds itself, he believes VW can overcome the crisis, according to the report in the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany.

The crisis, which has wiped out $34 billion in the company's value as shares have fallen, stems from the disclosure by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency last month that VW had rigged about 482,000 diesel cars in the U.S. to pass emissions tests even though they spewed far greater emissions on the highway.

VW admitted to the fraud and said 11 million vehicles are affected worldwide.

The New York Times reported Sunday that the cheating began in 2008 after Volkswagen's engineers figured out that the new diesel engines they had developed at great expense would not meet emissions standards in the U.S. and other countries. So they installed software to beat the tests, the Times reported based on unnamed sources with knowledge of the inquiry.

The cheating resulted from not wanting scrap the years of effort they had put into developing the engine. The report says VW is yet to pinpoint who was responsible for the cheating. Several engineers have admitted to creating the software aimed at cheating the tests, Germany's Bild am Sonntag newspaper reported Sunday.

The software may have been contained in parts from a big auto industry supplier, Continental, Bild says. But a Continental spokesman denied that the company knew of any contaminated software and wasn't in a position to measure emissions.
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Old 6th October 2015, 10:13   #463
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by tj123 View Post
Top VW exec warns emissions crisis could kill company
The cynic in me sees this as a ploy to garner 'too-big-to-fail' support from governments, particularly those places where VAG generates significant employment.

If the company survives, then fine - other auto companies have survived similar scandals.

If they don't survive and go under, then, VW as a brand will only be reaping what they've sown.

I would however feel for:
  • Owners of VW cars, and would wish for suitable measures to be taken to ensure serviceability (spares should be fine through component suppliers. Not much that can be done for resale, unless every other automaker follows Fiat's lead for an exchange bonus.
  • Employees at the blue collar level within VAG or suppliers - who risk their livelihood for no mistake of theirs.
  • Shareholders who bought into VAG in good faith.
This should open up the executives and managers involved to prosecution and liability.
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Old 6th October 2015, 12:40   #464
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

On a similar note, BP is set to pay $21 billion for Mexico oil spill. Though the damage in this case is very high compared to the case of VW, this is not intentional. It's accidental. But VW cheated intentionally. Wonder what would finally happen.
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Old 6th October 2015, 14:37   #465
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by johannskaria View Post
Interesting marketing from Fiat!

Attachment 1423435

Bloomberg article link
Fiat Chrysler should advertise saying - " Our bit for the environment, putting VAG cars off the roads, because we care "
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