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Old 5th November 2015, 02:12   #616
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Angry Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Volkswagen fails emission tests in India, gets notice
“We tested 11 vehicles manufactured by the Volkswagen Group in India. We discovered the diversion in emission ranging from five to nine times compared with the tests done during the prototype approval stage in the laboratory,” Rashmi Urdhwareshe, director of ARAI, told Business Standard.

The diesel Jetta, Vento, Octavia and Audi A4 and A6 cars were found to be emitting more NOx.”

Business Standard- http://www.business-standard.com/art...0401344_1.html
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Old 5th November 2015, 04:29   #617
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The end of an empire. Hightime VW invest on Petrol engines and stop selling the 1.4Jetta. Bring in those powerful petrol engine all the way from Vento to Audi. That is the easiest way to offset anything here. But i think the empire is DOWN. I find it difficult to see sunrise for VW at this point.
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Old 5th November 2015, 05:16   #618
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The news keeps getting worse for VW. I cannot believe the sort of mess they have put themselves into. The car themselves may loose flavour with the environment conscious but by and large the reputation of the cars will not suffer as much. What will suffer though are the coffers. The amount that VW might have to pay to settle all this will put serious drain on their finances which in turn means no new developments. I think it will be very hard for VW to get out of this mess that they have created.
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Old 5th November 2015, 07:50   #619
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by johannskaria View Post
Testing agency ARAI has found the diesel models of Jetta, Vento, Polo and A4 to be in violation of the local emission norms, Sharma said.

"ARAI found significant variation on higher side ... in on-road testing of Volkswagen cars," he said. "Normally three to four times higher than the limit is acceptable. This was higher than that."
That's a ridiculous quote by ARAI. How is three to four times higher than the limit acceptable? Shows how lax they are about pollution or anything against the manufacturers lobby.



And the latest news on CO2 fudging of petrol engines makes it worse for VW if it wasn't already. BBC says cars with 1.4, 1.6 and 2.0L motors are thought to be releasing more of CO2 than previous tests had shown.


Porsche' North American division has announced it is discontinuing sales of Porsche Cayenne diesel sport utility vehicles until further notice after EPA accused VW of fitting nitrogen oxide defeat devices on its larger 3.0 litre diesel engines. Both Porsche and VW has denied these allegations.

The company's shares have lost about a third of their value since September, when the diesel emissions scandal first broke.
Source
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Old 5th November 2015, 08:04   #620
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I'm unsure of the wider public opinion, but I now find it practically impossible to swallow the "bosses may not have known" theory. This isn't a limited-impact, one-off side effect of a dodgy technology gone wrong. This is intentional mass fudging of existing regulations (fairness/viability of said regulations is a different debate altogether) and couldn't possibly be the handiwork of a rogue individual/group given the scale of the whole thing. How does one pull off a global scam like this without the bosses being in on things?

Even on the infinitesimal small chance that this was done in secret by a few, that makes VW mgmt. appear even worse. Doing it intentionally makes them appear smart but dishonest, but presiding over something like this, ignorant of such large-scale skullduggery in their organisation just make them look like monumental chumps, not to mention thoroughly incompetent. Take your pick gentlemen.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 5th November 2015 at 08:08.
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Old 5th November 2015, 09:00   #621
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
Even on the infinitesimal small chance that this was done in secret by a few, that makes VW mgmt. appear even worse. Doing it intentionally makes them appear smart but dishonest, but presiding over something like this, ignorant of such large-scale skullduggery in their organisation just make them look like monumental chumps, not to mention thoroughly incompetent. Take your pick gentlemen.
^ This. In my current junior-level management position, one thing that has been drummed into me is the dual aspect of responsibility and accountability.
  • Responsibility is obviously holding one's hand up for the decisions or actions of oneself.
  • Accountability is the assumption of responsibility for decisions or actions by subordinates within my scope of control.
Not being aware of the decisions or actions of subordinates has never been an excuse for lack of accountability. The Nuremberg trials strengthened the notion of command responsibility, and held leaders responsible for the actions of their people.
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Old 5th November 2015, 09:13   #622
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
I'm unsure of the wider public opinion, but I now find it practically impossible to swallow the "bosses may not have known" theory.
Ditto. but for a different reason.
In my experience, it has now become ingrained that the boss should ALWAYS know! It has to be in email or writing that whatever I am doing is with his knowledge. It's less for ethical purposes, and more for CYA reasons.
Pleading ignorance is not going to work. One is placed in a position of control, for precisely that. What use is a 7 figure remuneration if if your head wont constantly be on the block?

Last edited by mayankk : 5th November 2015 at 09:23.
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Old 5th November 2015, 09:18   #623
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Default Re: Buyers/Owners reaction to the VW scandal : Your action

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Originally Posted by AutoInt View Post
My point of view as a owner of VW car
  1. This is a willful violation of law of the land
  2. Demonstration of no integrity
  3. Mislead the customer
  4. Mislead the Emission Testing Authority with arrogance ( VW had opportunity to correct themselves few years back but chose not to do)


ARAI investigation may come out clean on VW Indian cars, but that will not put to rest the doubts and loss of confidence of the owners / prospective buyers.

IMO, it is better to switch away from VW at the earliest possible opportunity to save few bucks and gain peace of mind .
Unfortunately the hopes of Indian VW owners have been belied - yesterday's media news said that ARAI has already found discrepancies in the CO2 emissions and would be following due process of law.

Your second suggestion - that of switching away from VW, at least till the mess is cleared (however unlikely it may turn out to be) - looks to be the more reasonable conclusion.

The ramifications - involving the whole group, including premium brands like Porsche and Audi - could well the sink the ship itself, going by the media coverage.
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Old 5th November 2015, 12:03   #624
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The TSI's are quite hi-tech engines in comparison to other engines in similar price bracket. VW had to use a cheating software on them as well? How hard was it for them to control emissions on a direct injection petrol? Other automaker's simple SOHC engines are also passing emission tests easily but how come VW needs a cheating device to pass?
And failing emission tests in India is shameful to say the least. We are at least two stages behind the west and yet VW had to cheat here as well? This is pretty pathetic VW and sad as well since I love your cars.

But I feel that VW is facing way too many bricks. GM,Takata+Honda and even Toyota made mistakes which proved to be fatal for many but still didn't face such wide spread negative publicity.
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Old 5th November 2015, 12:10   #625
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Like Maggi noodles, just ban VW from selling cars here in India or may be all over world. They are cheating like hell, cars polluting 5-10 times is way to high. Now even their Petrol cars are also under scanner which is really shocking. Looks like they have cheated the whole world. Its time to punish them hard, very hard. Better ban their cars all together so that no body can buy. Unless they do all the modifications and those are tested throughly, they should not be allowed to sell a single car. Also penalize them heavily like US did. Also ban their brands as well, like Skoda and Audi. Surely those cars also must be involved in cheating.

Hope sensible people will not buy any car from VW group now. As a responsible citizen we should not buy such product which is harmful to all society and more so for our children and future generation. When world is trying to reduce pollution, VW where doing cheating to save some money, really shameful.
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Old 5th November 2015, 12:28   #626
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
  • Responsibility is obviously holding one's hand up for the decisions or actions of oneself.
  • Accountability is the assumption of responsibility for decisions or actions by subordinates within my scope of control.
Responsibility is the term that is used in advance of an event or obligation. The reference is typically that a person is responsible “for” something. Accountability is the term that is used after an event or obligation. The reference is typically that the person is accountable “to” someone.

In a good organization - where there are no duplication of roles - everyone is responsible for something and everyone is also accountable to someone. In case of VW, there has clearly been a breakdown of supervisory responsibility at multiple levels (if one has to believe that there was no collusion) and a breakdown of accountability at least at the senior management level.
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Old 5th November 2015, 14:23   #627
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Like Maggi noodles, just ban VW from selling cars here in India or may be all over world. ...
Why not? My initital reaction that that doesn't make sense soon turned into thinking that, actually, it does.

As to the management thing: I always believed that it was my responsibility and duty to inform management of things that might go wrong, and the sooner the better. As a manager, that is what I want.

What's more, if it starts to get serious, I expect their contribution too. I should be expected to do my job, but, (apart from technical specialities) they are being paid more, often a lot more, for being more able than me, right?

Well, of course, often, not right. Most of the solutions-not-problems merchants adopt that mantra because the only skill they actually have is the specific skill of getting promoted
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Old 5th November 2015, 14:36   #628
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Like Maggi noodles, just ban VW from selling cars here in India or may be all over world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Why not? My initital reaction that that doesn't make sense soon turned into thinking that, actually, it does.
The key difference between Maggi and VW is that the lifespan of a Maggi packet is probably 1 week between the time it was purchased to the time it was consumed. When the ban was enacted, like many, I could afford to throw out Rs. 20 - 100 worth of noodles.

On the other hand, a car has a longer lifespan of years, and a financial 'hit' of lakhs.

Banning the sales of VAG cars is a noble concept, but then the company will fold quite quickly without new sales. We need the company around to:
  1. fix the emissions problem
  2. continue to support cars on the road
Spares for cars on the road can partially be covered off by component suppliers, but then, who'll do the QC of those parts before releasing them in the retail/ASC channels? Also, if I'm not mistaken, all manufacturers do the stamping of sheet metal into the shell in their own factories, not via suppliers. So that's another loose end that needs tying up.

Yes, the government could mandate that the company keeps churning out spares but halts new car sales. And that will punish the millions of customers who'll be saddled with devalued/worthless cars, for no fault of their own.

Any speculation of a ban should also consider these factors.
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Old 5th November 2015, 17:10   #629
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Why not? My initital reaction that that doesn't make sense soon turned into thinking that, actually, it does.
Why ban? Banning is a regulatory knee-jerk reaction which does not benefit customers, except in rare cases where evidence of public safety concerns is overwhelming.

The western system of regulatory penalties, compensatory damages and punitive damages has evolved over centuries to ultimately bring the value of a company towards its intrinsic value. In case of VW, its core value is in its design, technology and other engineering assets. If management assets - as demonstrated by their recent actions - is indeed worthless, its core assets should and would be taken over by some other car manufacturer for the benefit of global customers.

Suzuki recently bought back 20% (almost 120 million shares) worth $3.8 billion, ending a partnership it entered into with VW in 2009. The tie up, which resulted in Volkswagen becoming Suzuki's biggest shareholder, included co-operation on technology and expansion in emerging markets like India, where Suzuki had a leading position, ran into rough weather when Suzuki accused Volkswagen of withholding information it had promised to share on diesel engines. Now that the cat about VW's diesel engines is finally out, I won't be surprised if Suzuki finally decides to buy VW's assets.
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Old 5th November 2015, 17:18   #630
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
The key difference between Maggi and VW is that the lifespan of a Maggi packet is probably 1 week between the time it was purchased to the time it was consumed. When the ban was enacted, like many, I could afford to throw out Rs. 20 - 100 worth of noodles.

On the other hand, a car has a longer lifespan of years, and a financial 'hit' of lakhs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by msprabhakar View Post
Why ban? Banning is a regulatory knee-jerk reaction which does not benefit customers, except in rare cases where evidence of public safety concerns is overwhelming.
Points taken. I was shooting from the hip, with my noodles in a twist.
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