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Old 5th November 2015, 17:30   #631
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Back in 2002, the Enron and Worldcom scandals engulfed the corporate world. One of the key offshoots of that was the enactment of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act (SOX). The key thing that introduced was stricter and more formalized responsibility and accountability for auditing, with the board of directors directly responsible for internal control. They run the risk of criminal penalties, fines and prison terms if they fall afoul of this.

I wonder if this emissions scandal will similarly transform how boards are held to account for environmental impact, and maybe even technical accuracy.

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I was shooting from the hip, with my noodles in a twist.
Noodles deprivation will do that to you. I've been a wreck since June. Life is pointless.
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Old 5th November 2015, 17:52   #632
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
......
I wonder if this emissions scandal will similarly transform how boards are held to account for environmental impact, and maybe even technical accuracy......
Good observation and will probably happen, but thieves have always found a way of staying ahead of cops and that'll probably never change. As long as there's incentive to do something by cutting corners, someone somewhere WILL cut them.


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Noodles deprivation will do that to you. I've been a wreck since June. Life is pointless.
Advance bulk purchase to the rescue. Stock up or be deprived!
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Old 5th November 2015, 18:20   #633
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I wonder what will be the impact of this on VAG's India operations.
First, there wont be any major investments in terms of newer models or Sales and Service center expansion plans. We might expect minor facelifts but no new VW cars on our roads. Second, Cost cutting: Layoffs on cards ?
I am just speculating, Any expert who can predict in detail ?

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Old 5th November 2015, 19:14   #634
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

As I had predicted many pages back, the first catch was just the tip of the iceberg. Not surprised to see the 3.0L & the petrols come under the "cheat" as well.

As for corporate accountability, I am sure the VW head honchos are readying a sacrificial lamb (or a set of lambs) to be led into the spotlight, shift all blame on them, promise the world that they will "behave" and be "good boys" from now on, and pick up from there. Bet that the masterminds behind this massive "fraud" will continue to live scot-free.

The only ones left to suffer will be the present and/or future customers. With apprehensions of recalled vehicles standing to lose performance & efficiency numbers (the latter being more important), customers are caught between a rock and a hard place - resale values have already plummeted, and even if a faithful customer decides to stick with his Volkswagen car, he might be stuck with it for it's entire lifespan.

In these trying times, can compensation or selling back to the company help? Hardly. But that's the only sensible option available, since the German giant is yet to clarify to present owners as to how exactly it will be addressing this issue.

On a side note, we need a new term for this whole scandal now, since "Dieselgate" is now redundant.

"Volksgate", anyone?


As for the noodles, you can soon drive to at least 4 states to buy your Maggi.


Recommended read :- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...t-updates.html

Last edited by RavenAvi : 5th November 2015 at 19:26.
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Old 5th November 2015, 21:18   #635
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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As for corporate accountability, I am sure the VW head honchos are readying a sacrificial lamb (or a set of lambs) to be led into the spotlight ...
Finding and firing a handful of scapegoats is never a problem; the technical issues and the cost of their solution is the thing that may bring the company to the ground.

It is possible that they won't be able to fire the actual hands-on responsible engineers: they may be the only ones capable of producing the fixes.
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Old 5th November 2015, 21:26   #636
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Like Maggi noodles, just ban VW from selling cars here in India or may be all over world. They are cheating like hell, cars polluting 5-10 times is way to high.
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Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
The key difference between Maggi and VW is that the lifespan of a Maggi packet is probably 1 week between the time it was purchased to the time it was consumed. When the ban was enacted, like many, I could afford to throw out Rs. 20 - 100 worth of noodles.

Any speculation of a ban should also consider these factors.
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Originally Posted by msprabhakar View Post
Why ban? Banning is a regulatory knee-jerk reaction which does not benefit customers, except in rare cases where evidence of public safety concerns is overwhelming.
Yes, Banning is never a solution. It's a bit like capital punishment. Volkswagen needs to realise what it has done and be made to pay dearly for it. This will easily take a decade or maybe more. The company must be made to work and invest it's revenues into pollution control research. If VW survives and makes it through this period its gonna get the role that Germany got after WWII, Bootlickers to the US.

Here's a detailed article of the vw fiasco from Autocar UK
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...-certification
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Old 5th November 2015, 22:06   #637
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
The only ones left to suffer will be the present and/or future customers. With apprehensions of recalled vehicles standing to lose performance & efficiency numbers (the latter being more important), customers are caught between a rock and a hard place - resale values have already plummeted, and even if a faithful customer decides to stick with his Volkswagen car, he might be stuck with it for it's entire lifespan.
Hey RavenAvi,

Not just the customers, think about the dealers worldwide who have invested so much - unlike a customer who always has the option of not buying or using the car, the dealers' livelihoods depend on the support they get from the VW group. Can't begin to imagine how terribly let down they must be feeling.

Completely agree with you on the resale value and customer needing to forcefully stick to his car - Boy am I glad that I cancelled the booking of the Vento TSI and went ahead with the XUV5OO purchase. These decision was primarily made by taking into account what is stated here. Also, something kept telling me that there is more to this whole thing than just the diesel cars.

Quote:
In these trying times, can compensation or selling back to the company help? Hardly. But that's the only sensible option available, since the German giant is yet to clarify to present owners as to how exactly it will be addressing this issue.
Buyback is an option but not sure how viable it is going to be. Even the VW pockets can only be so deep.

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"Volksgate", anyone?
How about 'VAGate'? The whole group is under the pump.

Last edited by achyu : 5th November 2015 at 22:25.
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Old 5th November 2015, 22:18   #638
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Finding and firing a handful of scapegoats is never a problem; the technical issues and the cost of their solution is the thing that may bring the company to the ground.

It is possible that they won't be able to fire the actual hands-on responsible engineers: they may be the only ones capable of producing the fixes.
True.

I hope that the total costs incurred from solving this entire mess hits the company really, really hard. It will serve as a potent, bitter lesson not only to the VAG group, but to other companies as well that they simply cannot get away with breaking rules, downright cheating and malicious manipulation.

I don't sympathise with the company one bit. In fact, all customers who are now indirectly or directly involved in this scandal, should sue the company repeatedly, stripping them of even their last penny.

It will be a shame that several middle management company people, including technical and engineering sub-heads, might lose their jobs just because the top honchos had a brainstorm to "cheat" their way through. But, given the present situation, it will be a miracle if any/all scapegoat, even if he merely followed orders, will be spared.

No doubt they make some wonderful cars, and it's a shame to see so many revered car brands suffer because of this fraud. But the company deserves every brickbat which is thrown towards it today. Only then, maybe, the head honchos will actually realise the gravity of their collective follies.
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Old 5th November 2015, 22:44   #639
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
I hope that the total costs incurred from solving this entire mess hits the company really, really hard. It will serve as a potent, bitter lesson not only to the VAG group, but to other companies as well that they simply cannot get away with breaking rules, downright cheating and malicious manipulation.

I don't sympathise with the company one bit. In fact, all customers who are now indirectly or directly involved in this scandal, should sue the company repeatedly, stripping them of even their last penny.
I have a somewhat different opinion. Don't sue the company, don't bankrupt the company.
  • The company is more than just the board, managers and techies - these are the ones who should be targeted.
  • The company is also blue collar workers, who should not pay the price for the recklessness of management. Do you really want the guy on the line, holding a wrench, to lose his job?
  • The company is also minority shareholders who have no decision-making authority and no representation on the board. They might even be people like our own avdhesh15 or GTO. Should they have their shares devalued when the management misled them? Remember that the VAG stocks are tanking, and this is not due to vagaries of the market, but is due to illegal/criminal activity.
So, what I say is - select the board, managers, and relevant senior techies. Relieve them of their responsibilities. Hit them with punitive measures, including fines and even jail time. Put them down for years of community service, cleaning up oil spills, defusing minefields, whatever.

Put the rest of the company up for sale. The buyer only needs to inject their management, and they get a marque. Cancel the fines on the company (you've hit the responsible individuals, remember?), but let the company pick up the tab for any remedial measures. VAG is large, but I'm sure there are companies and individuals up to the challenge (Alan Mulally, you listening?).

And the stronger lesson will then be - the company will not take the fall for the stupidity or malice of individuals. The individuals responsible will be hit. Hard.

Last edited by arunphilip : 5th November 2015 at 22:46.
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Old 5th November 2015, 23:08   #640
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
And the stronger lesson will then be - the company will not take the fall for the stupidity or malice of individuals. The individuals responsible will be hit. Hard.
That works well too.

But for the common-man who is also a paying customer, where would he get himself redeemed for his grievances more - by suing Volkswagen or by suing Winterkorn? And, wouldn't it be easier for him to sue the company proper, rather than go after a person/group of persons, who can simply deny any/all responsibility AND accountability of the whole torrid affair?

Also, for example, if a shopkeeper has cheated me by selling spurious goods and I came to know about it albeit too late and found myself standing with lack of evidence, the least I can do is never set foot on the road to his shop again, while ensuring that anyone and everyone I know, knew about my ordeal as well. Tomorrow, even if the shop is sold and bought by someone else, no matter how honest the new owner is, the bad feeling associated with the shop will remain. For this to disappear, it might take an eternity and in some cases, it simply won't go away.

This will hold true for the majority of VW customers today.

Yes, blue-collared workers and minority shareholders will suffer, but in the bigger picture, the company is set to take a pounding so unfortunately, all things good and bad associated with it, will suffer too.

Sad, but true.

Last edited by RavenAvi : 5th November 2015 at 23:10.
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Old 6th November 2015, 02:51   #641
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
The company is also blue collar workers, who should not pay the price for the recklessness of management. Do you really want the guy on the line, holding a wrench, to lose his job?
I'm glad you have spoken up for the workers. I think it was the now-ex CEO who announced that measures would have to be taken "that would not be painless." It occurred to me then that that boded ill for the lower tiers of the workforce.
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Old 6th November 2015, 06:27   #642
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by arunphilip View Post
The key difference between Maggi and VW is that the lifespan of a Maggi packet is probably 1 week between the time it was purchased to the time it was consumed. When the ban was enacted, like many, I could afford to throw out Rs. 20 - 100 worth of noodles.

On the other hand, a car has a longer lifespan of years, and a financial 'hit' of lakhs.

Banning the sales of VAG cars is a noble concept, but then the company will fold quite quickly without new sales. We need the company around to:
  1. fix the emissions problem
  2. continue to support cars on the road
Spares for cars on the road can partially be covered off by component suppliers, but then, who'll do the QC of those parts before releasing them in the retail/ASC channels? Also, if I'm not mistaken, all manufacturers do the stamping of sheet metal into the shell in their own factories, not via suppliers. So that's another loose end that needs tying up.

Yes, the government could mandate that the company keeps churning out spares but halts new car sales. And that will punish the millions of customers who'll be saddled with devalued/worthless cars, for no fault of their own.

Any speculation of a ban should also consider these factors.
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Why not? My initital reaction that that doesn't make sense soon turned into thinking that, actually, it does.

As to the management thing: I always believed that it was my responsibility and duty to inform management of things that might go wrong, and the sooner the better. As a manager, that is what I want.

What's more, if it starts to get serious, I expect their contribution too. I should be expected to do my job, but, (apart from technical specialities) they are being paid more, often a lot more, for being more able than me, right?

Well, of course, often, not right. Most of the solutions-not-problems merchants adopt that mantra because the only skill they actually have is the specific skill of getting promoted
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Originally Posted by msprabhakar View Post
Responsibility is the term that is used in advance of an event or obligation. The reference is typically that a person is responsible “for” something. Accountability is the term that is used after an event or obligation. The reference is typically that the person is accountable “to” someone.

In a good organization - where there are no duplication of roles - everyone is responsible for something and everyone is also accountable to someone. In case of VW, there has clearly been a breakdown of supervisory responsibility at multiple levels (if one has to believe that there was no collusion) and a breakdown of accountability at least at the senior management level.
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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Like Maggi noodles, just ban VW from selling cars here in India or may be all over world. They are cheating like hell, cars polluting 5-10 times is way to high. Now even their Petrol cars are also under scanner which is really shocking. Looks like they have cheated the whole world. Its time to punish them hard, very hard. Better ban their cars all together so that no body can buy. Unless they do all the modifications and those are tested throughly, they should not be allowed to sell a single car. Also penalize them heavily like US did. Also ban their brands as well, like Skoda and Audi. Surely those cars also must be involved in cheating.

Hope sensible people will not buy any car from VW group now. As a responsible citizen we should not buy such product which is harmful to all society and more so for our children and future generation. When world is trying to reduce pollution, VW where doing cheating to save some money, really shameful.
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
The TSI's are quite hi-tech engines in comparison to other engines in similar price bracket. VW had to use a cheating software on them as well? How hard was it for them to control emissions on a direct injection petrol? Other automaker's simple SOHC engines are also passing emission tests easily but how come VW needs a cheating device to pass?
And failing emission tests in India is shameful to say the least. We are at least two stages behind the west and yet VW had to cheat here as well? This is pretty pathetic VW and sad as well since I love your cars.

But I feel that VW is facing way too many bricks. GM,Takata+Honda and even Toyota made mistakes which proved to be fatal for many but still didn't face such wide spread negative publicity.
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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Ditto. but for a different reason.
In my experience, it has now become ingrained that the boss should ALWAYS know! It has to be in email or writing that whatever I am doing is with his knowledge. It's less for ethical purposes, and more for CYA reasons.
Pleading ignorance is not going to work. One is placed in a position of control, for precisely that. What use is a 7 figure remuneration if if your head wont constantly be on the block?
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
The news keeps getting worse for VW. I cannot believe the sort of mess they have put themselves into. The car themselves may loose flavour with the environment conscious but by and large the reputation of the cars will not suffer as much. What will suffer though are the coffers. The amount that VW might have to pay to settle all this will put serious drain on their finances which in turn means no new developments. I think it will be very hard for VW to get out of this mess that they have created.
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Originally Posted by VW2010 View Post
The end of an empire. Hightime VW invest on Petrol engines and stop selling the 1.4Jetta. Bring in those powerful petrol engine all the way from Vento to Audi. That is the easiest way to offset anything here. But i think the empire is DOWN. I find it difficult to see sunrise for VW at this point.

It is heartening to note that, by and large, the general consensus - after due diligence & soul searching! - seems to be in favour of banning VW sales. Obviously this also carries the risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water. The high density, advanced technology that the group as a whole possesses (not VW individually) need not be buried with the group.

Like most gearheads on our favourite forum, I hope that (in case the guillotine does actually fall on VW) all the vested interests - govt. statutory authorities, special interest ecology/enviro groups and of course, the auto motive world at large - find a way to salvage the technology gold-mine. Minus the skulduggery, of course!

The Nuremberg trials certainly keeps the holocaust memories alive in succeeding generations. But it is worth remembering that while the trials went on, the US and other Allied powers did not hesitate utilizing known Nazis and Nazi-sympathizers in their post-war weapons & high-technology industries. This unfortunately is part of our human DNA!

Last edited by shashanka : 6th November 2015 at 06:36. Reason: Point left unsaid.
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Old 6th November 2015, 14:04   #643
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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U.S. remains one of the most important markets for Volkswagen
October 29, 2015 – The Volkswagen Group has reaffirmed its commitment to expanding its Chattanooga facility... As previously announced, the Group plans on a total investment of approximately $900 million in the production of a newly developed, seven-passenger SUV. In the state of Tennessee alone, Volkswagen Group anticipates a $600 million investment and creation of 2,000 additional jobs.

Volkswagen has already invested more than U.S. $1 billion in its factory in Tennessee. Currently, more than 2,400 employees work at the plant

http://www.vwvortex.com/news/volkswa...estment-plans/
I've been wanting to reply to this post when it was a separate thread, only to realize now its been merged into this thread.

Colour me a cynic, but to me this is the VAG group sending a message to the US:
  • Reiterating the scale of investment and number of jobs they are driving at their current plant (USD 1 billion sunk costs, 2400 current jobs)
  • Pointing out the number of new jobs and additional investment that might be hampered if the US regulators get too aggressive with VAG (USD 600-900 million future investment and 2000 additional jobs)
If US regulators start getting aggressive, then this news release would be the prelude to a different announcement on the lines of "due to the need to focus on the emissions issue as directed by the US Goverment, we are deferring further investment and expansion into the Chattanooga plant to enable the right amount of focus on addressing these demands". This will lead to a strong pressure from the Tennessee senator/congressmen, as well as lobbying from the labour unions there, since their state will be losing out on investment and jobs.

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Looks like a desperate attempt to inject some positive news in the media to keep the share value from crashing.
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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
This article seems almost comical because of its timing

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Old 6th November 2015, 14:29   #644
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The only thing this emissions tweaking scam should be remembered for is in raising the awareness of the true polluting capabilities of every automobile out there. VW have been caught with black soot in their hands and they cannot wiggle out of this one, emissions control was taken up globally to slowly & gradually reduce harmful exhaust gases, increase fuel efficiency and make the air friendlier for every being on earth. What VW did was not focus on technology to reduce emissions but to tweak the electronics to show reduced emissions on paper while real world emissions would be far, far higher. In such a case there is no point to the existence of environment protection agencies.

There are still many questions left unanswered, like the opposition German Green party's accusation that they knew about such manipulation 2-3 years ago and that they knew Merkel's CDU had been approving of computer software suppressors which had been made illegal. However one can argue that why did the Green party not be vocal about it much earlier, instead of raising their head after American agencies blew the lid off the whole issue. One can also argue that certain sources globally co-operated in keeping the whole issue under wraps for several years until the current norms became so strict that it could no longer be ignored (by people who didn't have related interests). Politics after all, is deeper than any known abyss.

As for latest news, apparently almost a lakh of petrol vehicles have been found with the tweak in Germany itself. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34723420
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Old 6th November 2015, 15:32   #645
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Default Re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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It is heartening to note that, by and large, the general consensus - after due diligence & soul searching! - seems to be in favour of banning VW sales. ...
No, despite my previous post, I am not in favour. I do not, at least at this time, want to destroy the company, either here or in Europe.

Ultimately, though, it would be the strongest possible way of getting across the message that the company's actions are legally and ethically unacceptable. In both respects, seeing has how noodles are now a part of the conversation, VW would seem to have transgressed at least as badly as Nestle/Maggi.
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