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Old 22nd September 2015, 15:40   #91
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

There are a lot of headlines doing rounds with the tag "$18 BILLION fines".
Would like of point out that the maximum fine which can be imposed is $37,500 per car i.e. 482,000 cars which comes to $18.075 Billion.

Max fine is never the final amount. Companies contest it in courts and final amounts are much lower.

Moreover, going through a lot of stuff written on the net, came across one where it is mentioned that EPA is seeking $18 billion in Civil fines. The maximum which has been collected under Civil fines from Automakers in the US history is $300 million. And this was from Hyundai & Kia for selling 1 million vehicles not meeting emission norms.

I will not be surprised if the final penalty would not be even 1/4 of the $18 billion in question right now.

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Originally Posted by rangan View Post
This is a question of credibility now. . I was considering the Vento as one the options, now it is out of contention.
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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
That's a bit of an over reaction.
Agree with you starscream. It is most definitely over reaction. Their TDI's meet the EURO norms and are the popular choice throughout Europe.
Vento is out of contention just because one of their TDI engines is now not meeting EPA norms in the US? Do you really even check the emission numbers of any particular model before buying one in India? If you have access and you do, I will not be surprised with some Indian competitors faring worse.

US laws are biased against the Diesel fuel. In the Indian context it might be one of the cleaner diesel engines among the other Diesels available. We do not have data at hand but I am sure the ARAI laws are much more relaxed than the EPA for the Diesels. VAG cars would easily pass them, as have their competitors.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 15:51   #92
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

So... if BMW, Mercedes compete and best each other with the Vw family diesel engines when it comes to performance and emission norms, it may well be that all the germans have been cheating.

Would like to know if the japanese adapt such crafty measures as well.

Never expected this from german marques. How different are they from chinese manufacturers now.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 15:56   #93
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Some very interesting articles on this scandal over at Car and Driver:

The testing of VW cars started as an exercise to arrive at a control model as VW cars were meeting the emissions standards without issues! Only for them to find out that the whole thing was a sham.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-vol...ons-standards/

Not just a EPA investigation, now there is a DoJ investigation as well - likely leading to criminal proceedings as well.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/departm...-diesel-snafu/


VW will take a hit initially, but I suspect they'll be able to bounce back as long as they can manage it properly. After all, we have had GM's ignition scandal, the Toyota unintended acceleration scandal and the latest Takata Airbag scandal (which Honda owns partially), with no lasting effects on the respective company's survival. The world has not stopped buying GM or Toyota vehicles because of the scandals or the fact that deaths have been attributed to defective vehicles.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 16:05   #94
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by SLK View Post
I'll watch this subject closely. Seems like a typical case were US using its regulatory agencies tries to screw non-US companies and the media twists words to get most readership.

A system to cut down pollution when a stationary vehicle is revved without cause, is necessary and a good add-on. Its unfortunate if the pollution checks haven't gotten realistic since ever, come to think of it, how pathetic and unrealistic is pollution test procedure in India.
Co-operation with investigation does not mean acceptance of guilt. The US market is very large and the law enforcement agencies are strict. On earlier occasion too, the Toyata CEO had apologised on the issue of death due to unintended acceleration of the car. Although it was not the fault of Toyota. The service stations /dealerships placed wrong size/ incorrect foot mats which were getting entangled with the accelerator pedal causing the accidents. And who mans these service centres? US citizens! But the Japanese CEO had apologised for no mistake of Toyota Japan.

Jury is not out yet. Media reports may be to sensationalise the issue to paint non-US products/ companies as monsters.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 16:15   #95
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinit.merchant View Post
There are a lot of headlines doing rounds with the tag "$18 BILLION fines".
Would like of point out that the maximum fine which can be imposed is $37,500 per car i.e. 482,000 cars which comes to $18.075 Billion.

Max fine is never the final amount. Companies contest it in courts and final amounts are much lower.
True, GM's fine for their misdeeds, which cost lives, was $900 million. I would be surprised if VW pays even half of that.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 16:37   #96
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
What volkswagen did was OK in my book, the EPA tests consistently rated diesels below their actual fuel economy so after 6 years of doing nothing like checking if the tests were a waste of time, the EPA managed to get hold of university research for free and now plan to make money off it. You probably think that is ethical, I think it is wrong.

I have the example of the EPA waste dumping as an example of how these useless agencies operate without any accountability, nowhere did I say that's a license for everyone else to do so. To turn your question around, the you toxic dumping was done and no EPA employee will be punished for it, this has poisoned the water supply in a huge area and the losses are immense, if the EPA can be left off why should volkswagen have to pay for pollution which no one can prove as having caused a death or illness.?
First... VW just admitted that they "screwed up". See below:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...we-screwed-up-

Next... Lets say I have some jewellery locked up in a locker in my house that I hardly ever use. Lets say my maid steals this and I don't notice this for six years because, well... I am stupid and I am lazy. Then some relative of mine says, "Can I see that piece of jewellery that you wore for your wedding 10 years back?". And when I see that its gone, my stupidity/laziness still doesn't allow the maid the property to be hers.

Secondly, a testing standard is a declaration of intent. The process of measurement may be limited by my ability to measure in a consistent, practical manner. Taking my penchant for off-the-wall examples further, the Board of Medicine can grant a guy the license to practice medicine based on his university degree and grades, but if they should find that the guy is killing patients in real life, they can suspend that license as well.

Regarding how the EPA is allowed to get away for screw ups. Lets say, they are slapped with an $18 billion fine. Where is that money going to come from? And who will get the money? The latter is easy... the community that got impacted by that toxic spill, of course. They can use this money to attempt to get back to normal. However, the government already does this. They don't leave the toxic sludge lying around, do they? Now... where does the money come from? Since it is a government agency, it has to come from John Q. Taxpayer. But, isn't that like robbing your right pocket to pay your left pocket? As to whether someone in the agency was held responsible, I suspect that it is probably what happened. In the US, even in the government people can get fired for negligence. I believe there was a lady who was fired because someone accused her of reverse racism. Hell... a traffic cop was fired in New Delhi because someone caught him chucking a rock at a woman. So... how is this not accountability? What more do you want? Getting $18 billion from these people?
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Old 22nd September 2015, 17:02   #97
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

The latest news is that 11 million cars could be affected by this deception.
Quote:
But VW has now explained that the code has been installed in other vehicles. And that means 11 million cars with its Type EA 189 engines would show false emission rates when tested.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/...b0da121189d71b
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Old 22nd September 2015, 17:10   #98
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Updates:
  • Potentially 11 million cars affected worldwide.
  • VAG sets aside a 6.5 billion Euro charge to deal with this.

Volkswagen Statement

Quote:
Volkswagen is working at full speed to clarify irregularities concerning a particular software used in diesel engines. New vehicles from the Volkswagen Group with EU 6 diesel engines currently available in the European Union comply with legal requirements and environmental standards. The software in question does not affect handling, consumption or emissions. This gives clarity to customers and dealers.

Further internal investigations conducted to date have established that the relevant engine management software is also installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines. For the majority of these engines the software does not have any effect.

Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use was established solely for this type of engine. Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate these deviations through technical measures. The company is therefore in contact with the relevant authorities and the German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA – Kraftfahrtbundesamt).

To cover the necessary service measures and other efforts to win back the trust of our customers, Volkswagen plans to set aside a provision of some 6.5 billion EUR recognized in the profit and loss statement in the third quarter of the current fiscal year. Due to the ongoing investigations the amounts estimated may be subject to revaluation.
Earnings targets for the Group for 2015 will be adjusted accordingly.

Volkswagen does not tolerate any kind of violation of laws whatsoever. It is and remains the top priority of the Board of Management to win back lost trust and to avert damage to our customers. The Group will inform the public on the further progress of the investigations constantly and transparently.
Sources:
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Old 22nd September 2015, 17:25   #99
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
Co-operation with investigation does not mean acceptance of guilt. ....

Jury is not out yet. Media reports may be to sensationalise the issue to paint non-US products/ companies as monsters.
Th carmaker has just admitted that 11m vehicles are involved

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinit.merchant View Post
There are a lot of headlines doing rounds with the tag "$18 BILLION fines".
Would like of point out that the maximum fine which can be imposed is $37,500 per car i.e. 482,000 cars which comes to $18.075 Billion.
...
They have set aside 6.5B Euros to deal with this crisis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crisscross View Post
The latest news is that 11 million cars could be affected by this deception...
Here are the major excerpts from the latest guardian article

Quote:
Emissions-rigging scandal widens
Exec says Volkswagen ‘totally screwed up’
Car giant’s share price drops by 30%
Company sets aside €6.5bn for costs
Read the full article here

So, the question in my mind is IF they are made to recall each one of the affected vehicle, will it be the largest ever recall by any automobile manufacturer?

Last edited by 1lokesh : 22nd September 2015 at 17:28.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 17:43   #100
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
1) from the vox.com link I posted on the previous page:
I see no impact on India. Our emission standards are nowhere close to U.S./Europe standards. That kind of NOx scrubbing technology is not even used in cars sold here, partly because our diesel is of a poorer quality than is needed for those types of technologies.
while I agree with you that our efficiency norms are not as stringent, I can state regarding Jetta that it is equipped with a particulate filter like the counterpart in Europe.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 18:21   #101
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
while I agree with you that our efficiency norms are not as stringent, I can state regarding Jetta that it is equipped with a particulate filter like the counterpart in Europe.
I seriously doubt that because a diesel particulate filter needs ultra-low sulfur diesel, which is not available in India. If a DPF is used on our fuel quality it will get clogged in a very short time, leading to a possible stalling situation. Even BMW and Mercedes don't use DPFs in India for this reason.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 18:41   #102
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

First head to roll, CEO to be replaced soon..

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/49061006.cms
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Old 22nd September 2015, 18:47   #103
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

Let's put this another way, diesels were fine when it was restricted to trucking & transport industry, it was still fine when a few big cars were sold with diesel engines. Today with the rampant increase in diesels in Europe & Asia (India in particular) and the same trend catching on in America, there are a few very obvious things that are coming out.

First and foremost being that diesels emit particularly alarming levels of NOx per engine compared to gasoline. The reason is due to the inherent nature of creation of NOx, i.e combination of nitrogen & oxygen under high pressure and over longer time. Gasolene fuel is closer to a spirit and its readily combustible, operates in far lesser heat than diesel and burns quicker, diesel in comparison requires high compression pressures to combust, much higher than petrol thus creating an atmosphere of high heat, longer burning & thus more emission of NOx. Unlike in petrol where catalytic converters can neutralize most of the harmful emissions, diesels work differently and a few stuff like combustion control, exhaust recirculation were used to cut down marginally on particulate emission. Apparently urea was used as the latest method to convert NOx into N2 but software algorithms apart, even not topping up the AdBlue or Diesel Exhaust Fluid would result in uncontrolled NOx emissions, and that depends purely on the responsible actions of the owner.

Hopefully this would be a lesson for manufacturers to not fudge emission numbers using marketing terminology and unsubstantiated technology with multiple variables, even if it results in zero sales. Let them make progress first then put such engines for sale. I know there are fans of diesel engines and that's great, but let the truth be out that that diesel as a fuel will always cause more harm to the atmosphere than petrol, though both are essentially poisons of different strain.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 18:48   #104
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

VW is feeling the heat worldwide.

Quote:
The spiralling scandal has led to France calling for a Europe-wide probe into the revelations, South Korea summoning Volkswagen officials, and the US Justice Department reportedly launching a criminal investigation.
Source
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Old 22nd September 2015, 19:00   #105
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Default re: VAG's emission fraud - VW cheats in emission test

I agree with earlier poster where he said "US laws are biased against the Diesel fuel" , it's time when diesel engines were picking sales in US and this story comes into picture. There might be bigger conspiracy , may be US car makers GM and Ford might have lobbied the with EPA (All major frauds in US is conspiracy). Agree what VW did in US is unethical but i don't think the same would flow to Europe and Asian markets where the laws are not that stringent for diesel engines. Turns out this going to be the biggest scam in auto industry (like 2g scam in telecom industry) , shares are already down by 40% in last few days and it would take long time for VW to recover from this.
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