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Old 18th December 2015, 15:32   #16
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Very good thread and well written too. It was like reading a report written by an expert journalist. Rated a well deserved 5 star.

Coming to the topic, I mentioned before in some other thread that instead of banning odd-even cars and such things, the Government should have taken big initiative to incentivize electric vehicles. First they have to build infrastructure and charging points to be able to handle the load. Then there has to be encouragement for manufacturers to focus on EVs in India. So it will take time and we can only hope to have an EV in future which will give us the same thrill behind the wheel that a gasoline car gives today.

P.S. Like Toyota, I also believe that Hydrogen Fuel Cell based cars are better alternatives compared to EVs. And I'd love to drive something like Honda FCX Clarity when I'll change my car one day.
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Old 18th December 2015, 15:57   #17
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

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Originally Posted by Grace View Post
The pollution levels are there anyways.

While we (aam Junta) think it very cool to use electric vehicle such as E2O, what with its massive cost, and projected savings in term of per kilometre running charges, we still need to to introspect on what fuels we use to generate electricity. Many Electricity generating stations still depend on fossil fuels like coal. Burning of coal produces pollution and this is not exactly serving the purpose of running your car on "CLEAN FUEL".

Andy
There are 2 reasons why electric vehicles are better than their hydro-carbon powered counterparts even if the electricity is generated by coal powered plants-

1. Urban tail pipe emissions: Coal fired electricity generation plants are situated away from the cities where most people live. Sure, they pollute and contribute to green house emissions which has a long term detrimental effect but what affects most of us daily is the soot and the particulate matter and other harmful emissions from those millions of cars and vehicles that blow their toxic pollutants right under our nose.

I'll use an analogy here. Say you are a non-smoker sitting in a room with a close friend who likes to smoke. You are sipping on a beer (or fruit juice if that's what you prefer), enjoying some Bob Dylan catching up on old times. Suddenly your friend has an urge to light up and smoke. Now he has 2 options- he either smokes right there in that room subjecting you to second hand smoke or excuses himself, goes on the terrace and lights up over there where no ones around. What would you prefer? Remember, he's got to smoke anyway. Harmful as it may be, it's not illegal.

2. Carbon Capture & Storage Technology: In a coal fired electricity plant, all the smoke/pollution is emitted from one smoke stack (or maybe a few smoke stacks). There are proven technologies that can be deployed to capture and store most of that CO2. These technologies are expensive but they exist and have been used for over a decade now. It is far easier to arrest the emissions from a coal fired plant than it is to contain all the emissions from millions of tail pipes. The technology exists, what we need is regulation and implementation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon...re_and_storage


Last edited by Astleviz : 18th December 2015 at 15:59.
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Old 18th December 2015, 16:07   #18
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

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Originally Posted by Grace View Post
The more adaptibility to Hydro Powerstations, more we save on the environment. But then there is a strong lobby by Coal mine allottees, which brings back to the original question of what defines a clean fuel?
Agreed. My perspective - True clean energy is reserved for the days of Nuclear FUSION power plants (no harmful byproducts). Commercial Nuclear Fusion plants are, perhaps, 50-70 years into the future. And besides, this is mother nature's very own source that powers the entire universe, it's stars and galaxies.

Even electricity created by Nuclear Fission power plants is not (truly) clean. These plants create a humungous amount harmful radioactive material with a half-life of a few centuries (disposal of the same is a problem in itself).

So I guess, what we are looking for is the delta decrease in pollution levels once we have a massive number of electric cars on the road. Atleast petrol/diesel related pollutants would (should?) decrease.
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Old 18th December 2015, 16:46   #19
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Very interesting article Rajeev, very relevant to the current ongoing events!
If a user of a petrol / diesel car has to feel that he is not losing a lot by adopting to the EV, EVs should be able to satisfy the following:
a) Range - If I fill my tank, it easily goes on without another visit to the pump for 500 km at least - EVs should offer the same.
b) Charging on the go - On a petrol car I can go on a 2000 km road trip, without much thoughts, as I can find petrol pumps even in remote towns. Similarly there should be a possibility to charge quickly and go without stopping for long time.
May be, we could have a few fully charged batteries with us, which we should be able to replace on our own, as simple as connecting a pen drive to USB port. Innovative solutions such as the batteries being centrally owned, and buyers only purchase electricity in the form of fully charged batteries, by exchanging the battery after usage. There will be takers, if such exchange batteries are available at Rs.2000, which can give us a range of around 500 kms (Same expenditure as petrol).
c) More than 2 seaters - The EVs we have seen are at most 2 seaters - Reva as well as e2O. We need more variety - such as proper hatchbacks, sedans, even full blown SUVs.

If the technology is simple to use, there will be many takers. If suppose, if some manufacturer says, after filling petrol, car has to be pushed by hand for 5 kms to warm up the engine, and then only it can be driven, how many takers there would be for petrol cars? Similarly, along with the subsidies given by Government, the technology has to mature to make it convenient to use.

Last edited by hybridpetrol : 18th December 2015 at 16:48.
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Old 18th December 2015, 18:46   #20
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

This is a topic that always has been interesting me. The first and foremost, a car that I admire is the Tesla. The high numbers it sells tells us that the rich will buy electric cars if they are appealing. For e.g., for a potential Lambo owner, if an electric car can match its performance and at the same time give some tax exemptions, I'm sure that they will buy the electric version.

Second, the EV community has been quite successfully converting conventional gas guzzling cars into only electric cars quite successfully. Instead of buying a completely new electric car, imagine just swapping the engine for a nice motor and adding a bit of batteries - yes easier said than done, but a guy has even converted his Land Rover 4x4 into an EV.

And thirdly, in almost all the cases, the government has been pro active. Not only have they given tax exemptions and other monetary rewards for adopting EVs, they even give free parking, exemption to odd/even rule, etc. A few years ago I used to think why doesn't Indian govt exempt import tax/duty for electric vehicles ? A tesla, approx 50 lakh rupee car would have definitely found itself home in some rich guys garage instead of a 1 crore S class ! Then, as slowly people see more electric cars on the road, even if they are niche, Maruti or Tata would come up with some electric vehicle and the govt could give them some concessions. But I guess this is just hopeful dreaming. At least for the sake of pollution the govt must promote EVs. And us bhpians won't be left out since the electric cars are no slouch. The only thing missing would be the throaty engine growl, which can be reproduced from speakers .
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Old 18th December 2015, 20:44   #21
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Market research has proved that Diesel vehicles will sell in large numbers in India, therefore companies have put their efforts in manufacturing diesel cars. So the alternative to a petrol car is a diesel one for Indians.

To the government: When you can't supply uninterrupted electricity for 24 hours, how do you think you'll implement pure electric cars?

The advantage of electricity is that there are three stages of expansion in a turbine, therefore having a greater efficiency. Electricity is also produced by renewable resources too.

I'm looking forward to Fuel Cell. It seems a more viable option as you can just fill your tank and drive off, just like petrol/diesel.
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Old 18th December 2015, 22:52   #22
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Rajeevraj, thank you for this thread and all the exciting information. Rated it a well deserved 5 stars. Electric vehicles are the way of the future and gradually ways will be found to recycle, reuse or safely dispose off the batteries. Maybe technology will invent batteries that last for 20 years - who knows. Even if the car is eventually powered by a coal or gas burning electric plant that plant is more green than our car. With regenerative braking, no engine idling at traffic signals and a seamless torque conversion a electric car should consume less kilowatts apples to apples than an internal combustion powered one for exactly the same usage. And we have to start somewhere. - Narayan

On 29th April 1899 Camille Jenatzy a Belgian set the world speed record in this electric car. Speed = 106 kmph. Photo depicts him in this streamlined futuristic looking 4 wheeler with his cap at a jaunty tilt. The 21st century is finally catching up with the 19th.
Attached Thumbnails
The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive-f3.jpg  

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Old 19th December 2015, 13:49   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
The 21st century is finally catching up with the 19th.
It seems our ancestors were more technologically advanced than us

Here are just a few electric cars from the 19th century-

The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive-ev1.jpg

The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive-ev2.jpg

The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive-ev3.jpg

The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive-ev4.jpg

The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive-ev5.jpg

The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive-ev6.jpg

Source:
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/overv...tric-cars.html
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Old 20th December 2015, 11:38   #24
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Excuse me for sounding like a conspiracy theorist. All of this electric vehicle talk now reminds me of a documentary i had seen years back. I could not find the documentary on youtube, but there is a trailer I could share;



It talks about how Electric cars were leased in the US in mid 90s and then suddenly discontinued by Car companies who ended the leases and destroyed all the cars ever made. Its an interesting theory about how the oil mafia in the US prevented the EVs from growing. It talks about everything Pro and against EV and is a pretty nice insight.
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Old 21st December 2015, 13:50   #25
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

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Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
There are 2 reasons why electric vehicles are better than their hydro-carbon powered counterparts even if the electricity is generated by coal powered plants-

1. Urban tail pipe emissions: Coal fired electricity generation plants are situated ........
Yes, this is a point which needs to be made, (although I am not sure if your analogy is correct). It really matters whether a given amount of energy is produced in one place, like in a monolithic powerplant (coal power station), or in millions of small powerplants (IC engines). Due to thermodynamic efficiency losses, overall pollution will be definitely less in the former case. And also tail pipe emission will be lesser in populated places. So this reason alone is sufficient to switch to EVs I feel.

But, (there is always a but ) I have assumed ideal case. I am not sure the energy required for electric engine to produce identical mechanical output is the same or different than to a IC engine. And, due to huge T&D losses in our electricity grid, the power produced at the power station needs to be much higher than what finally reaches our homes. So, its quite possible, the final pollution lifecycle is more in the case of electric vehicles.

The best way is to use renewable sources of electricity for charging EVs. Like Tesla is doing. Their superchargers use such sources, and not traditional power stations. Infact, India is actually having a good renewable energy share when compared to many countries in the world. So, EVs could indeed be a good solution all in all.
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Old 21st December 2015, 14:02   #26
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Electric cars are the future. There are no two ways about it. The only question is this:

"Is this a way forward or back?"

With the current battery technology, it is a way back. What is the singular objective of an automobile? It takes people or cargo from one place to another without taking up an eternity to refuel. Simple.

Hybrid is rubbish. You are only solving part of a problem. For those of us who commute 50-60km each day, we will run on petrol or diesel for 90% of our commute. Plug-in hybrids solve this to a larger extent but it still won't get me from Hyderabad to Bangalore on electric charge alone. Fuel cells are promising but as of now it takes more energy to create hydrogen than can be extracted from hydrogen. So this is a negative sum game.

Alternate fuels then? You are only delaying the inevitable. CNG is cleaner than petrol or diesel. But CNG is still a fossil fuel. One day, we will run out of it. Also, CNG is not as clean as electricity. Some argue that thermal power plants are polluting. Yes, but it is easier to upgrade a few power plants and make them pollution free than to upgrade all the vehicles on the road. So this argument does not fly.

The only question that we need to answer is this:

"What combines the best of the Honda FCX clarity with the power of the Fisker Karma?"

Whoever answers that question will probably get the Nobel.
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Old 21st December 2015, 15:30   #27
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Originally Posted by lucifer1881 View Post

Hybrid is rubbish. You are only solving part of a problem. For those of us who commute 50-60km each day, we will run on petrol or diesel for 90% of our commute. Plug-in hybrids solve this to a larger extent but it still won't get me from Hyderabad to Bangalore on electric charge alone.
There exist a category of cars exactly for you. Range extended electric vehicles. They are 100% electric but have a small onboard generator - petrol around 500-600cc that turns on when you are almost out of juice. Maruti showcased the Swift range extended vehicle with a 600cc petrol engines.

While I agree electric is not for all, but there will be options. Eg on day one Tesla naysayers claimed what's the use it if you can't go coast to coast, but now they built a network of superchargers that'll charge your vehicle in the time you'd eat/take a bio break and stretch.

So change will happen, but slowly.
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Old 21st December 2015, 15:44   #28
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There exist a category of cars exactly for you. Range extended electric vehicles. They are 100% electric but have a small onboard generator - petrol around 500-600cc that turns on when you are almost out of juice. Maruti showcased the Swift range extended vehicle with a 600cc petrol engines...
This is a category of a Hybrid vehicle only, isn't it? Whether the engine directly powers the drive train or it charges the battery, the power is still through a combination of battery and petrol/diesel. So, the issue is still not solved.

Yes, someday it will be. Someday supercharging will be the norm. Not today.
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Old 21st December 2015, 19:05   #29
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I would really be interested to understand what are the good electric bike options available for us in India.
Unfortunately there are no really 'good' options available. Several manufacturers have attempted it and have stopped. The cost to value proposition is still the problem. Currently, as far as I know-Hero Electric (Website) is the main manufacturer of electric scooters. But a model that can go at max 45kmph for ~50km costs ~45,000. A bit more will get you a proper scooter. So the utility value is minimal. I dont think we have any Electric Motorcycles.

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The only thing missing would be the throaty engine growl, which can be reproduced from speakers .
Actually Toyota does this in the Mirai . From an online review.

Quote:
Apply more right foot and a subtle whirring noise rises in pitch as the Mirai accelerates. Toyota says it has added this to provide some artificial feedback. Hopefully there’s a setting buried somewhere to turn it off; maybe some drivers find it comforting, but it makes about as much sense as dubbing a mechanical tick onto an Apple Watch
Quote:
Originally Posted by 400notout View Post
It talks about how Electric cars were leased in the US in mid 90s and then suddenly discontinued by Car companies who ended the leases and destroyed all the cars ever made. Its an interesting theory about how the oil mafia in the US prevented the EVs from growing. It talks about everything Pro and against EV and is a pretty nice insight.
You are not too far off the mark. When doing the analysis, I came across several articles on how dealers attempt to discourage buyers who come in for EV's. One excerpt below (Source)

Quote:
It's been five years since mainstream electric cars like the Nissan LEAF and Chevy Volt went on sale. In that time, plug-in car buyers have repeatedly complained about poor consumer experiences at car dealerships. Most of their stories fall into two categories:
  • Undertrained sales people who don’t know very much about the cars and the underlying technology
  • Dealers pushing shoppers to consider conventional gas vehicles instead of the plug-in they came in to buy

Online forums provide numerous anecdotes about this apparent dealership bias against electric vehicles. And in the last year, the evidence has become far less anecdotal.

The New York Times recently investigated the phenomena and its causes. The newspaper cited a speech by a former chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association. The industry group head compared electric vehicles to broccoli and gas-powered vehicles to “low-calorie doughnuts.”

Last year, Consumer Reports published the results of a secret shopper study of 85 dealerships in four states, finding that at 35 of those dealerships sales staff attempted to steer buyers toward internal combustion vehicles instead of a plug-in they had expressed interest in. Thirteen of those dealers tried to entirely discourage shoppers from buying an EV.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 10:39   #30
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Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

First ever EV Expo in India will be held at Pragati Maidan, New Delhi from 24 December to 27 December 2015.

Quote:
With the objective to convert 10% of the two, three and four wheeled fuel killers into hybrid or electric machines, the Government of India is all set to inaugurate India’s first ever International Electric Vehicle (EV) Expo 2015. The ribbon cutting of the green mobility exhibit will be done by Union Minister for Road Transport & Highways, Nitin Gadkari. The four-day international exposition will be held at Pragati Maidan, New Delhi from 24 December to 27 December 2015.

The expo will showcase the latest environment friendly electric vehicles, component, services and products from over 100 Indian and international companies. More than 500 top tier business and ministerial delegates from around the globe, headed by County Mayor Shan Chanfeng, are expected to attend the EV-Expo. China has the highest number of companies showcasing their products.
Sources:
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