Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP Worldwide > The International Automotive Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 22nd December 2015, 13:19   #31
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pune
Posts: 29
Thanked: 35 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
To the government: When you can't supply uninterrupted electricity for 24 hours, how do you think you'll implement pure electric cars?

The advantage of electricity is that there are three stages of expansion in a turbine, therefore having a greater efficiency. Electricity is also produced by renewable resources too.

I'm looking forward to Fuel Cell. It seems a more viable option as you can just fill your tank and drive off, just like petrol/diesel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer1881 View Post
Electric cars are the future. There are no two ways about it. The only question is this:

"Is this a way forward or back?"

With the current battery technology, it is a way back. What is the singular objective of an automobile? It takes people or cargo from one place to another without taking up an eternity to refuel. Simple.

Hybrid is rubbish. You are only solving part of a problem. For those of us who commute 50-60km each day, we will run on petrol or diesel for 90% of our commute. Plug-in hybrids solve this to a larger extent but it still won't get me from Hyderabad to Bangalore on electric charge alone. Fuel cells are promising but as of now it takes more energy to create hydrogen than can be extracted from hydrogen. So this is a negative sum game.

Alternate fuels then? You are only delaying the inevitable. CNG is cleaner than petrol or diesel. But CNG is still a fossil fuel. One day, we will run out of it. Also, CNG is not as clean as electricity. Some argue that thermal power plants are polluting. Yes, but it is easier to upgrade a few power plants and make them pollution free than to upgrade all the vehicles on the road. So this argument does not fly.

The only question that we need to answer is this:

"What combines the best of the Honda FCX clarity with the power of the Fisker Karma?"

Whoever answers that question will probably get the Nobel.

Lets consider every single point together; and first and foremost; lets not forget the main objective here; 'To make the environment cleaner'.

But lets not forget; that its not easy to convince the general public that changes to make the environment is going to affect their/our lifestyle a little bit; something which any person will inherently dismiss. This in the pursuit of making cars cleaner, people tend to find faults in electric cars as 'Range Problems' a.k.a 'Range Anxiety'; In hydrogen cars, its the storage problems and safety issues of carrying hydrogen on-board. Hybrids, well i will agree with lucifer1881 on that one; they are totally rubbish. And from an engineering point of view i will say they are just making things complicated.

I think we will all agree that there is not a 100% clean/renewable energy that can be easily/efficiently tapped. So i think we will end up with multiple sources of energy. And i think we all will also agree that there is no new energy source that is yet to be discovered, or do we?. Well i guess we cant count on that one and wait till we have totally damaged our environment. Its better that we start with the options that we already have on our table.

Now if you look at the options that we have for running our cars; so as to save our environment; the foremost runners are Hydrogen and Electricity. Both will work, obviously; they are proven technology.

But i think end of the day everything boils down to efficiency or in our terms, 'kitna deta hai!!!'. Just assume if you are out to buy a car today. And the car that you decide to buy is available at the same price for both petrol and diesel, which car would you buy? We all know the answer to that one dont we. Its the same case for hydrogen and electricity.

If we look at amount of energy used by similar cars; one hydrogen and one electric, if electricity uses x amount of energy, hydrogen will use 3x. Thats right, three times the energy. That is obviously huge.

Now if we consider production, hydrogen can actually only be generated in large quantities from hydrocarbons; which means we are again dealing with fossil fuels, which is so stupid. Then we are really not solving anything are we. Plus we have to deal with transportation of this hydrogen to different station which again just adds to the wastage of energy.

Now electric production on the other hand can be done in multiple ways as we all know. Wind power which is obviously clean. Solar energy is clean. There are many other renewable ways in which electricity is produced, ex. tidal and others. Now thermal power plants that burn coal are polluting i agree; but the new plants that come up are 90% cleaner than the old one. The carbon dioxide and other gasses are almost removed. And the old plants are now almost or more than 50 years old. They are on their way out. Which means over time we will have very less overall emission from these plants. Transportation of electricity is simple; we have an existing grid already, and by just extending the grid, we can reach more places. And the grids can be 90% efficient. But the main thing is that none of the cars on the road will now be polluting. Which means we can cut out 100% of the emissions from cars.

Another thing is that somethings run better when they are using electricity as a form of energy. The best electric motors of today are 93% efficient. Just for comparison the petrol engine is at best 25-28% efficient. Also fun facts, less than 1% of the energy produced is used to move the person sitting in the car.

Practicality the foremost question by everyone. And everyone thinks that electric cars can only run 80 kms. What everyone doesn't think is that not all cars is a REVA. Tesla Model S has a range of more than 550 kms. Thats the time we tank up. Which means if i charge my car today, i can manage for more than a week. But the thing is; i am definitely going to charge almost everyday. Which means i always have a range of 550 kms. I will be in Goa even before my battery drains out. So the question of 'not enough range' doesn't exist now. The battery technology is good enough for us to use it today. And we know it is going to get better. Thus we can rely on it.

How can an electric vehicle sustain a long trip is a question more frequently asked. I guess the supercharging technology that Tesla introduced is enough to address that problem. I guess it is normal for any of us driving to take a break after 300 kms of driving. And if we can time these breaks, we can charge our batteries then.
frewper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2015, 13:44   #32
NPV
Distinguished - BHPian
 
NPV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Namma Bengaluru
Posts: 4,687
Thanked: 4,454 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

The Verito electric is expected to launch in March 2016 so one more EV option in India - Link
NPV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2015, 14:16   #33
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: bangalore
Posts: 165
Thanked: 83 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer1881 View Post
Electric cars are the future. There are no two ways about it. The only question is this:

"Is this a way forward or back?"

With the current battery technology, it is a way back. What is the singular objective of an automobile? It takes people or cargo from one place to another without taking up an eternity to refuel. Simple.

Hybrid is rubbish. You are only solving part of a problem. For those of us who commute 50-60km each day, we will run on petrol or diesel for 90% of our commute. Plug-in hybrids solve this to a larger extent but it still won't get me from Hyderabad to Bangalore on electric charge alone.
There are superchargers like the one's Tesla have built,which charges upto 50% capacity in 20 min and some of the Tesla Model S have a range of 500km and for a 7hr+ drive ,I bet you will stop for a petrol or food.
There is also the Tesla battery swap ,which changes the battery in less time then to fill the tank.

But chances of us getting those in india? May be in the next decade.

As far as Range extended Ev cars which have a engine.The engine is turning at its most efficient state and its sole job is generate electricity.So, while they still pollute its fuels efficiency can be more then 40km/l.
In a traffic stop they can switch off the engine ,which can be of big help for the traffic cops and people in two wheelers.

Last edited by aim120 : 22nd December 2015 at 14:18.
aim120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2015, 15:35   #34
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 62
Thanked: 39 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowall View Post
I would really be interested to understand what are the good electric bike options available for us in India.
Apart from Hero Electric, I think there are a couple of more companies. One is Ampere vehicles - http://www.ampvl.com/
and the other one is Go Green BOV - http://www.gogreenbov.com/#/home/


The TV cable operator in our area has an "Ampere 60" and he said his fuel savings are Rs. 1.5L since the time he bought it. He said he is very happy with it since his commute radius is small and all he has to do is plug in for charging at night.
DDIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2015, 08:31   #35
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Whangarei, Chd
Posts: 112
Thanked: 82 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Check this out. BMW and Nissan roll out dual-plug EV chargers across the US. They're countering Tesla by installing a fast-charging network of their own.
Quote:
They're launching a network of 120 dual-format fast chargers (both CHAdeMO and CCS) across 19 US states, any of which should bring most EVs up to 80 percent in less than 30 minutes. The stations should be available now, and you can find them in the automakers' respective mobile apps.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive-bmwnissandualevcharger.jpg
source
KomS_CarLog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2015, 08:55   #36
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,984
Thanked: 5,905 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

If you ever happen to be flying to Amsterdam, the Netherlands you will find many taxi's at Amsterdam (Schiphol) have gone electric now!

http://www.taxielectric.nl/en/

I have used them in the past 4-5 times already. Of course these Tesla's are very comfortable cars. The cabbies tell me they get an average of close to 400 km out of a full charge. Most of their trips are pretty short, just taking people into Amsterdam or neaby. I live in a small village just outside The Hague, about 55 km from the airport. But out there, there are several charging points as well.

They told me it takes 10-15 minutes max to get a high speed 75% charge. So that's not bad, enought for a quick leg stretcher and bathroom break.

Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2015, 09:10   #37
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Panjim, Goa
Posts: 362
Thanked: 156 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Quote:
Originally Posted by nihilanth View Post

But, (there is always a but ) I have assumed ideal case. I am not sure the energy required for electric engine to produce identical mechanical output is the same or different than to a IC engine. And, due to huge T&D losses in our electricity grid, the power produced at the power station needs to be much higher than what finally reaches our homes.
.
Electric motors are 90-95% efficient as compared to 25-30% efficiency of IC engines. Transmission losses of electricity are approx 25-30% in modern grids. Even if electricity is generated by coal, EVs are cleaner when it comes to well to wheels efficiency in most cases.
Astleviz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2015, 09:12   #38
BHPian
 
ajitstreet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Delhi
Posts: 32
Thanked: 38 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KomS_CarLog View Post
Check this out. BMW and Nissan roll out dual-plug EV chargers across the US. They're countering Tesla by installing a fast-charging network of their own.
If such technology is available outside India, what is stopping these companies from launching them in India? These cars may be costly but I think there will be enough buyers here. If so many high priced luxury cars can be sold here, why not electric? Is it due to lack of infrastructure (translated to charging points and the like)? Will anyone list out the issues?
ajitstreet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2015, 10:29   #39
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,984
Thanked: 5,905 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
Electric motors are 90-95% efficient as compared to 25-30% efficiency of IC engines. Transmission losses of electricity are approx 25-30% in modern grids. Even if electricity is generated by coal, EVs are cleaner when it comes to well to wheels efficiency in most cases.
Not really a relevant comparison. You need to look at it end to end.

How much fuel/cost does it take to generate say 1kW in a power plant and how much of that 1kW is left to drive the wheels on your electrical motor driven car.

http://www.brighthubengineering.com/...-power-plants/

Power plants effeciency is in the range of 32-42% for most oil and coal fired plants. Add the transmission loss and the losses in charging the batteries and the effeciency of the electrical motor you can begin to see that it is not that straightforward what is best. In reality it is of course far more complicated but as a 30.000 feet comparison this is very much what it is all about. Many articles and scientific papers have been written about it. I'm far from an expert, but I'd say the jury is still out on this one.

There are a few obvious advantages. The biggest is the fact that wit e-cars you do cur down on emission is highly congested areas, e.g. towns and metro's. You just have emissions somewhere else. But its probably easier to deal with. It's easier to clean up the emssions of several thousands coal and oil power plants, then hundreds of million truck and car engines. Especialy when you start adding environmental power generation into the grid, e.g. sun, wind, hydro and dare I say it nuclear power generation.

Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2015, 11:30   #40
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Whangarei, Chd
Posts: 112
Thanked: 82 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajitstreet View Post
If such technology is available outside India, what is stopping these companies from launching them in India? ...... Is it due to lack of infrastructure (translated to charging points and the like)? Will anyone list out the issues?
You got it right. Infrastructure is a big hurdle. Government policy towards EVs is another. In US, some states will subsidize your EV to nearly 70-80% of the total cost - over a period of 2-3 years. So a USD5000 Nissan Leaf might cost you just USD1000 over a period of 2-3 years. Now, if I get such a deal (along with the required charging infrastructure), I definitely will consider this.
KomS_CarLog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2015, 14:18   #41
BHPian
 
ajitstreet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Delhi
Posts: 32
Thanked: 38 Times
Default

Read this article on electric vehicle policy issues in India. It says that recent policy called FAME is too little too late.

[url] http://www.livemint.com/Industry/rGnTveNiF68E70vW2d0DGI/Subsidy-on-electric-vehicles-may-not-cheer-makers.html /[url]
ajitstreet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2015, 16:01   #42
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 17
Thanked: 12 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifer1881 View Post
Electric cars are the future. There are no two ways about it. The only question is this:

"Is this a way forward or back?"

With the current battery technology, it is a way back. What is the singular objective of an automobile? It takes people or cargo from one place to another without taking up an eternity to refuel. Simple.

Hybrid is rubbish. You are only solving part of a problem. For those of us who commute 50-60km each day, we will run on petrol or diesel for 90% of our commute. Plug-in hybrids solve this to a larger extent but it still won't get me from Hyderabad to Bangalore on electric charge alone. Fuel cells are promising but as of now it takes more energy to create hydrogen than can be extracted from hydrogen. So this is a negative sum game.

Alternate fuels then? You are only delaying the inevitable. CNG is cleaner than petrol or diesel. But CNG is still a fossil fuel. One day, we will run out of it. Also, CNG is not as clean as electricity. Some argue that thermal power plants are polluting. Yes, but it is easier to upgrade a few power plants and make them pollution free than to upgrade all the vehicles on the road. So this argument does not fly.

The only question that we need to answer is this:

"What combines the best of the Honda FCX clarity with the power of the Fisker Karma?"

Whoever answers that question will probably get the Nobel.
Hi lucifer

90% of the time hybrid runs on gas engine is a highly inaccurate statement in my opinion, please share your experience with hybrid cars. How is 90 % probability true?

In India there exists only one true hybrid, which comes from the toyota stable, with two engines each one capable for propelling the car on its own power. Infact in city the camry hybrid runs on electric power as long as feasible. On highway runsspeeds of 80 to 90 kms an hour on electric motor alone.

Even the Lexus Hybrid uses the exact same power train arrangement as the one currently sold in India. If it was rubbish it wouldn't sell worldwide would it?

As far as the potential of alternative fuel goes, I dont know what the future holds, but iam excited nonetheless. Dismissing the hybrids as rubbish in a region that does not support the infrastructure say for a tesla or nissan leaf is atypical.

I appreciate toyota motors for introducing a true hybrid in India , those who use it can truly experience the potential alternative means of propulsion provide.

Currently a Tesla can do a Bom-pune-bom run on via expressway without needing recharge and do the grocery run after that all in a days work.

Is India ready for Tesla? The answer right now is NO.

Is India ready for Hybrids? The Answer right now is Yes
Sparks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2015, 18:06   #43
Senior - BHPian
 
agambhandari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Delhi,Ludhiana
Posts: 1,126
Thanked: 840 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

I believe EVs could be instrumental in clearing Delhi's pollution woes, but we need something that is modern and viewed as a "proper car" by the people. Delhi govt. is already shutting down the power plants in city and sourcing it from elsewhere. Introducing and subsidising EVs is what they should be looking at.
While they have put a blanket ban on diesel cars, if they can simultaneously introduce more benefits for the EVs, auto industry is bound to be interested.

The only real EV that has been available is the Reva and it has had a poor response thanks to its looks, proportions and after sales.
Frankly, what I would be happy with is a Hatchback, about the size of a Swift that could maybe cost near its petrol counterparts (if not immediately, at least after the subsidy and tax benefits, depreciation etc.). These benefits are what's gonna drive the indian car makers for the electric push.
agambhandari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2015, 18:29   #44
BHPian
 
Speed Pujari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 429
Thanked: 385 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Indeed a very informative thread Rajeevraj, thanks for sharing.

WRT the discussion about using EV in India, I think it does not make sense to debate that the electricity is ultimately coming from Thermal power plant which is one of the source of pollution.
While using EV in India we are not increasing number of Thermal power plants or making the plant emit more smoke. However, at least while using EV extra amount of fossil is not getting burnt.
With EV the pollution source can get centralized which can be strategically controlled by willful government.
There are plans for Solar power plant, Nuclear power plants etc. Also by time the cost effectiveness of EV in India will be improvised. There is not such a severe shortage of electricity in urban India that we cannot charge a car for 3-5 hours. Rural? Yes, but having EV in rural areas has its own repercussions.
Speed Pujari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2015, 21:25   #45
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chennai
Posts: 61
Thanked: 49 Times
Default Re: The Electric Vehicle (EV) Landscape - A Deep Dive

Excellent analysis of EVs. As far as I am concerned, it is too premature to talk about EVs as main stream vehicles in India.The Government's priority is to ensure at least half a day uninterrupted , correct voltage electricity supply to farmers for irrigation- that's where our food comes from !
rselva is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hyderabad to Hampi, Deep Dive ARAY Travelogues 17 12th January 2017 11:04
Dive Agar magiceye Travelogues 6 24th March 2013 08:25
Lakshadweep - A "dive" vacation ... nvldvr Travelogues 10 10th January 2012 14:31
Mumbai Taxi's - Part of our landscape! Rtech The Indian Car Scene 40 10th April 2007 20:44
Fiat may get an Indian partner -Automobile Landscape In For Makeover greatDrive The Indian Car Scene 0 5th September 2005 17:27


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 11:37.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks