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Old 4th April 2016, 08:37   #16
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by Gasolinejunkie View Post

Most Jeeps aren't reliable.
Funny then that my 2007 JK Wrangler is still going strong after 145,000km. Nothing has gone wrong with it so far. It's used only on weekends and mostly off-road. Dirt tracks, through water, up hills. I've been doing this for the last 3 years at least, and apart from the usual servicing, I haven't done anything to it. Nothing rattles. Nothing has fallen off. It starts with one crank every single time.

Also, in 2010, four of us drove across the Oodnadatta Track in a friend's 2007 JK Unlimited (picture below). Apart from one puncture, nothing went wrong with the car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oodnadatta_Track



Also our local Jeep club has a great write-up about their 2007 trip to the same place.

http://www.adelaidejeepclub.com/repo...on_Aug2007.htm

Sorry to go !
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Old 4th April 2016, 09:54   #17
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by nakul0888 View Post
What do you mean not a big win for chevy?
...
I am sorry, even though the whole world could overlook all of chevy's victory over the m4 and still prefer the BMW because of it being a BMW and an M car
...
Which is precisely the sentiment that BMW is exploiting to price their cars at that level and sell the "M" badge. Which is what they are milking to get the fat profit margins they have.
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Old 4th April 2016, 13:23   #18
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

My first american car was a 2005 Cadillac SRX V8 which was very European in its build quality, engine design etc....but it wasn't very easy to live with i.e leaky cam covers, cracked dashboards, overly complicated electricals, noisy panoramic roof, kaput projector lamps etc.

My second American car is now a 2013 Chevy Tahoe LTZ which is an uncomplicated workhorse with average build quality and cabin materials made out of hard plastic. However the payout is on the reliability of the engine and the related mechanicals. The simple layout of the engine, the long lasting brakes and the live solid rear axle mounted to a proper load bearing frame make it a proper load bearing SUV. Couple that with decent fuel economy and pocket-friendly repair cost, you have a winner...well almost!

Basically, it all boils down to the number of years you want to keep the vehicle.
The longer the ownership the simpler the vehicle, the shorter the ownership the more complex the vehicle. My two cents!
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Old 4th April 2016, 14:14   #19
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

I think everyone is overlooking the big picture here. The chevy is huge v8 producing as much power as the BMWs (comparatively) minuscule inline 6. If we only look at the power figures and engine size, the M4 produces 146Horses/liter while the chevy pumps out an agricultural 74horses/liter. Why is it hard for people to grasp that getting more out of less requires ENORMOUS engineering prowess. Had BMW put an equally well engineered V8 into the m4, it would have easily made upwards of 800 horses, Factory.

Sure, this is a discussion about the value for money of the cars. On paper, and on the video in OP, it looks like both the cars are almost the same with the chevy inching ahead of the m4. I am comparing the test to going from Panvel to Goa. There are two routes, the NH4 which is a massive 4 lane open road and the MSH(?)[forgot the number] which follows the west coast along the western ghats almost constantly overlooking the ocean. Both reach Panjim, but on the NH4 you are driving on a straight line, max out your car/bike is youve got the balls, the road will take it. There is nothing to see, apart from the Kashedi ghat I think. But you reach Goa, and you get there quick. The coastal highway on the otherhand, is full of technical corners, endless curves, and almost a constant surreal bliss of driving in one of the best landscape on the planet. Life is slow, the people are good, you are happy to be there. You reach Goa yes, but you reach there already soaked in the beauty of the ghats, the sea and the beautiful people. Its emotional.

The Chevy here is the NH4, it had a target: Beat the m4 and it did that in the simplest way possible, plonk in the biggest engine you can practically plonk. Gets the job done. Good.

The M4 on the other hand is the Coastal Highway. It gets you to the same place where the Chevy gets you. But it does so with a technological prowess not to be found in the big american. Its got charm. There is something emotional about driving a very well engineered engine. And to people who are enamored by this precision and precariousness, the M4 is perfect.

To the people who want pure epinephrine rush [Adrenaline is just a brand name, epinephrine is the hormone, read it just now], the chevy is the tool of choice. It gets you almost everything the m4 gives and it does so for cheap. Im sure there are plenty of people on both the side of the spectrum. Both of them are very good cars and have very well deserved price tags, but they are in no way similar nor do they compete with each other. The Chevy will eat up only a fraction of the M4 sales and a person who can and wants to buy an M4 wont ever look at a chevy.
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Old 6th April 2016, 23:17   #20
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The Grand Cherokee was a different story all together and was a pig in its very first incarnation and remains a pig in its current version as well.
Jeroen

Well, everyone has an opinion but not everyone wants to hear it. I know everyone doesn't want to hear mine. Get over your rage.!

Your opinion on Grand Cherokee doesn't really make it a pig. Nor does your glorification (opinion) of M4 make it a super car.

I own a 2009 Grand Cherokee (4.7 L, V8) and have been driving it for over 7 years now with 120,000 Kms in the Odo. I have enjoyed driving it & absolutely had no issues with it so far.
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Old 7th April 2016, 06:45   #21
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by cbatrody View Post
Well, everyone has an opinion but not everyone wants to hear it. I know everyone doesn't want to hear mine. Get over your rage.!
As far as I’m concerned not only does everybody have an opinion, but everybody is entitled to express it. Especially when it concerns cars on a car forum. Whether you do, is one’s own choice. But I love reading about others opinions. I might not always agree, but that is a different matter all together.
I would like to say this is a car forum, so it is not as if we are discussing anything particularly important, such as world peace. So no matter what anybody says or believes it’s not worth getting upset about. It’s only cars.


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Originally Posted by cbatrody View Post
Your opinion on Grand Cherokee doesn't really make it a pig.

Absolutely agree! I have said it quite a few times. We tend to take our own personal experience, with say a particular car, e.g. a Grand Cherokee and then extrapolate that personal experience for all Grand Cherokees.

My experience is limited to having worked on several Grand Cherokees, knowing quite a few owners, being active on various Jeep forums for quite a number of years. I own the workshop manuals, parts and some tools.

Your experience appears to be based on your current ownership of a Grand Cherokee. But there are several million Grand Cherokees out there in at least 4 different generations. So statistically speaking your or my experience is completely and totally insignificant. It amounts to absolutely nothing, other than an opinion.


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Originally Posted by cbatrody View Post
Nor does your glorification (opinion) of M4 make it a super car.
Not sure what gave you the impression that I even like the M4. In this particular thread I say on BMW:

Quote:
you will know I am not a big fan of the German trio perse
Quote:
Mind boggling boring it might be, but a BMW 5 series or Audi A6-8, it is a much nicer environment to spend your time in than this Vette
Quote:
So no Vetter for me. Back to the boring BMW or Audi most likely
Admittedly, I would take the BMW over the Vette, but only if you make me. I’m not a BMW fan and I have never understood the fascination with the M badge.

The other thing with BMW is their drivers. They are held in absolute contempt by the rest of the motoring public out there.

See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...age-wheel.html

Not sure if the above applies to India, but driving a BMW in Europe puts you high up on the contempto-meter with most other drivers.

So where do I glorify the BMW? I do believe, preference and opinion, that the BMW is put together much better using far better materials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbatrody View Post
I own a 2009 Grand Cherokee (4.7 L, V8) and have been driving it for over 7 years now with 120,000 Kms in the Odo. I have enjoyed driving it & absolutely had no issues with it so far.
Good for you! Keep enjoying it. I would say you are lucky, because my experience with Grand Cherokee’s are different.

For those that believe numbers constitute something better than personal opinion, here are some stats:

http://www.truedelta.com/Jeep-Grand-...eliability-144

Enjoy your car and never keep your opinion to yourself!

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 7th April 2016 at 06:49.
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Old 7th April 2016, 13:38   #22
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
As far as I’m concerned not only does everybody have an opinion, but everybody is entitled to express it.
Totally agree, everyone has their freedom of speech. I never said one should not express their opinion (sorry if it sounded so). All I meant was when you said “Grand Cherokee was a pig in its very first incarnation and remains a pig in its current version as well”, it sounded to me more of an opinion coming from prejudiced thoughts than a healthy debate. Of course, you came back with your side of the story in detail of your experience with the GC and other Jeep models in your next post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
My experience is limited to having worked on several Grand Cherokees, knowing quite a few owners, being active on various Jeep forums for quite a number of years.
Surprising you were active in Jeep forums for several years when you initially knew that their products were bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
But there are several million Grand Cherokees out there in at least 4 different generations.
Exactly my point, definitely there must be something in this car why so many people drive it around worldwide. Of course, there will be pros and cons for each and every product & nothing is ever 100% perfect. End of the day what matters is the % of pros over cons which makes a product successful over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
For those that believe numbers constitute something better than personal opinion
I agree, even I believe in stats over opinions. Given below are few of the URLs on some of the interesting stats for anyone who is interested:

World’s bestselling Top 100 cars in 2015:
http://focus2move.com/world-best-selling-car/

Jeep Cherokee – 44th place with 301,286 cars sold in 2015
Grand Cherokee - 55th place with 278,991 cars sold globally in 2015



Top 25 Coolest SUVs ever made:
http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/1...est-suvs-ever/


Best SUVs for 2016-17:
http://www.caranddriver.com/best-suvs-crossovers


Top 12 FASTEST SUVs in the world:
http://www.carophilia.org/fastest-suvs-in-the-world/6/


One of the Top Recommended SUVs:
http://www.edmunds.com/suv/buying-guide/


One of the Best Off-road SUVs of 2016:
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...rankings/suvs/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Good for you! Keep enjoying it. I would say you are lucky!
Yes, I am, Thank you!
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Old 7th April 2016, 17:54   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbatrody View Post
Surprising you were active in Jeep forums for several years when you initially knew that their products were bad.



I agree, even I believe in stats over opinions!

Please check my posts. I never said all Jeeps were bad. I said the earlier series cherokee are actually pretty solid and reliable and all Grand Cherokees are pigs.

I really like my Cherokee. It wasn't a particular good car to drive, but it had bags of charm and it was just so practical.

I work on all my cars and my friends cars. So i belong to all sorts of forum and clubs. In Kansas City I had several spanner mates and we would help each other and other members out. Obviously, we worked mostly on bad cars, because they end up giving problems! So, I have spend many happy hours fiddling with all sorts of problems on Grand Cherokees.

I don't like stats and I was hoping you would do exactly what you did. Because it shows that anybody can come up with stats to prove their point. My stats show the Grand Cherokee as not very reliable. You throw ina bunch of stats that you believe proof it is a good car. But if anything it also show what your opinion about a good car is like. Apparently the number of cars says something about it being good? For me,the number of cars says something about exclusivity, or lack of. The more cars get sold, the more average a car is likely to be.

As far as Im concerned their are very few absolute facts, only opinions matter in the real world. We like to dress them up with facts, but in reality everybody seeks his own sets of facts to suit one's opinion. I'll try and google for some research that factually proofs me correct.

Lets get back to Vette's and BMWs. Not particular keen on either. But I will tell you one thing though. BMWs are phenomenally well designed and engineered. The Vette is much improved but for me does lack the quality and attention to every single detail you will find in a BMW.

I don't care to much about circuit handling and performance as these days i don't do circuits anymore. A bit boring I know, but then Im a bit of an old git these days, so a car needs to suit my life style which is definitely a little more sedate when it comes to driving then say ten years ago.

Jeroen
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Old 7th April 2016, 18:10   #24
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by ashwin1224 View Post
I think everyone is overlooking the big picture here. The chevy is huge v8 producing as much power as the BMWs (comparatively) minuscule inline 6. If we only look at the power figures and engine size, the M4 produces 146Horses/liter while the chevy pumps out an agricultural 74horses/liter. Why is it hard for people to grasp that getting more out of less requires ENORMOUS engineering prowess. Had BMW put an equally well engineered V8 into the m4, it would have easily made upwards of 800 horses, Factory.

The Chevy here is the NH4, it had a target: Beat the m4 and it did that in the simplest way possible, plonk in the biggest engine you can practically plonk. Gets the job done. Good.

The M4 on the other hand is the Coastal Highway. It gets you to the same place where the Chevy gets you. But it does so with a technological prowess not to be found in the big american. Its got charm. There is something emotional about driving a very well engineered engine. And to people who are enamored by this precision and precariousness, the M4 is perfect.

To the people who want pure epinephrine rush [Adrenaline is just a brand name, epinephrine is the hormone, read it just now], the chevy is the tool of choice. It gets you almost everything the m4 gives and it does so for cheap. Im sure there are plenty of people on both the side of the spectrum. Both of them are very good cars and have very well deserved price tags, but they are in no way similar nor do they compete with each other. The Chevy will eat up only a fraction of the M4 sales and a person who can and wants to buy an M4 wont ever look at a chevy.
I would disagree. Chevy is a NA V8 which is a dying breed. No forced induction motor can give you the pleasure of a NA motor. Even though M4 is a more sophisticated machine, the chevy also has a soul and an old school NA V8 soul.

Its a matter of perspective. Sophistication does come at a price but Chevy isn't that crude, eh?

Last edited by A M : 7th April 2016 at 18:11. Reason: Trimming the quoted post.
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Old 8th April 2016, 10:17   #25
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I would disagree. Chevy is a NA V8 which is a dying breed. No forced induction motor can give you the pleasure of a NA motor. Even though M4 is a more sophisticated machine, the chevy also has a soul and an old school NA V8 soul.

Its a matter of perspective. Sophistication does come at a price but Chevy isn't that crude, eh?

Too true, mind you some of the American Muscle car appeal was the very fact they were always quite a bit more 'crude' then the Europeans. It was, certainly in Europe, what gave them their charm. When they do away with the crude factor you immediately need to measure up to the level of sophistication and quality of the German trio. A hard act to follow.

10 - 15 years ago I might have preferred a then Vette over a then BMW for that very reason. They were just very different cars with very different appeal. Now every cars trends towards being more and more the same as the next one.

All of these sort of cars are most likely pretty good in their own right. But the level of differentiation, what really makes it stand out from the crowd, has diminished.

Jeroen
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