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Old 2nd April 2016, 09:32   #1
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Default BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?



This is video just staggering if you ask me. How can a Chevy costing half the price of a BMW M car can be better than it at almost everything? I never would have thought the german car would take such a whooping in a comparison test . In fact the last time the big boys at fatherland took this sort of beating was when the GTR was launched back in 2007!

Earlier even though the american competition was cheaper, it was perceived rightly so because of cheap interiors and low tech. Well the Americans have upped their game and their car still costs significantly less. So what is it that actually inflates the price of german cars to ridiculous levels? Over complicated electronics? German taxes? Ever widening profit margin?

More importantly if chevy decides to make camaro RHD and import it to here in India what will be the price differential with respect to the M4 in similar spec? Very curious to know,will it have the same price advantage or would our tax system skew it up?
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Old 2nd April 2016, 11:57   #2
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

Forget the specifics, crank up the volume and just listen to the Chevy. GOD thats sweet!!!
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Old 2nd April 2016, 17:30   #3
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by nakul0888 View Post
I never would have thought the german car would take such a whooping in a comparison test .
The Vettes have been giving the Europeans a whupping consistently, especially the newer ones which are sharp handlers as well.

Quote:
So what is it that actually inflates the price of german cars to ridiculous levels? Over complicated electronics? German taxes? Ever widening profit margin?
Badge, profits, high cost structure in Germany.

Why only sports cars? Take the new Camry and compare it to the E-Class, or the Skoda Superb or even the new Ford Endeavour vs the (gasp) GLA-Class!

Quote:
More importantly if chevy decides to make camaro RHD and import it to here in India what will be the price differential with respect to the M4 in similar spec?
Multiply the American price into 2.5X .
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Old 2nd April 2016, 19:01   #4
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

Well, if you want numbers, BMW has an operating profit margin of around 10% (pretty consistent), while GM has an operating profit margin anywhere between 15% to negative, depending on the year you pick.

Anyway, I don't think anybody looks at profit margin for a particular car model - because manufacturing cost is only a small part of the "total cost" of a car. Lots of $$$ would have gone into product design, engineering, testing, sales infrastructure, branding, factory machinery, people costs etc - all of these costs are shared among various models.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 19:42   #5
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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The Vettes have been giving the Europeans a whupping consistently, especially the newer ones which are sharp handlers as well.

.
During my last recent trip to the USA I had a very good look at this Vette.. Trust me, it is still a crappy, typically American car compared to the German Trio, as far as I’m concerned.

Admittedly, they have come quite a bit quality wise, but then again, build quality and finish on Vette’s compared to European cars were just appalling to start with.

If you have read some of my other posts, you will know I am not a big fan of the German trio perse. Even though it looks like for my next posting the company car is going to be a BMW, Audi, Mercedes or Volvo.

But seriously, maybe the Vette does well tearing around a circuit. I still found many issues with the overall look and finish of these cars compared to “European Standard”.

There are virtually no Vette’s in Europe and I don’t see this one coming soon either.

When I return back to the Netherlands for my next assignment, I will be doing about 80-100.000 kilometers in my company car. Mind boggling boring it might be, but a BMW 5 series or Audi A6-8, it is a much nicer environment to spend your time in than this Vette.

Whether the (perceived?) quality difference warrants such a price difference is a different matter all together of course.

Blaming cost structure as the big differentiator is, I think, way to simple an approach or explanation. Plenty of examples of hugely successful companies with higher wages than other in their industry, that still manage to outperform their competition.

Some info on the European versus US cost structure:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederic.../#7bf7e6ce289f

The other thing to bear in mind is that of course just about all USA car manufacturers went nearly bankrupt not to long ago, whilst the European Car manufacturers, by an large, sailed through the same difficult global turmoil period.

A European perspective, not necessarily mine, but still an interesting perspective:

http://www.realnewspost.org/sa.php?a=33116

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...pid-or-coerced

Can you demand a ‘badge premium price’? Probably, but that still doesn’t guarantee you profits as far as I can see.

So no Vetter for me. Back to the boring BMW or Audi most likely.

Jeroen

Last edited by GTO : 4th April 2016 at 09:55. Reason: Lets not make baseless statements against any brand
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Old 2nd April 2016, 20:19   #6
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

If the German took such a drumming, even on what is perceived to be their core competence, wonder what residual value does German Engineering are left with. They already score poor on Reliability stakes. They were never known for value. Diesel-gate Scandal, who would have imagined.

Is it time to ignore cars from them?
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Old 2nd April 2016, 20:45   #7
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

Totally surprising.
Considering the VFM, mods and depreciation the Americans makes much more sense than the Europeans.
Hope the whole package comes to india when it comes to Mustang.
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Old 2nd April 2016, 22:49   #8
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

I've been a mechanic for 10 years and I can't stand German cars. They ride on their brand name and the country they come from.
European cars have dropped the ball after the invention of plastic, everything is made from it and give up before the 10 year mark.
I'd be keen to see how the new highly strung American cars hold up but usually they last a good 300,000km before any major engine or transmission work.

The other issue I have with European cars is they use electronics instead of good engineering.
Electric power steering, Automatic transmissions, adaptive braking and active suspension. Give me a light car with a manual transmission and rear wheel drive over anything made from plastic driven by computers
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Old 3rd April 2016, 08:47   #9
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by Gasolinejunkie View Post
I've been a mechanic for 10 years and I can't stand German cars. They ride on their brand name and the country they come from.
European cars have dropped the ball after the invention of plastic, everything is made from it and give up before the 10 year mark.
I'd be keen to see how the new highly strung American cars hold up but usually they last a good 300,000km before any major engine or transmission work.

The other issue I have with European cars is they use electronics instead of good engineering.
Electric power steering, Automatic transmissions, adaptive braking and active suspension. Give me a light car with a manual transmission and rear wheel drive over anything made from plastic driven by computers
I have been driving, owning and working on cars for more than 40 years. At any time I will own 4-6 cars. Each one of them typically at least 10 years old. Today my ‘newest’ car in my little fleet is 14 years old. So although I would be the first to admit that statistically speaking, my experience, given the vast number of cars out there, is negligible, it is at least different from yours.

I don’t think it is a factual correct that everything is made of plastic. Lots of different kind of materials and endless varieties of plastic, obviously as well. Some of these might get brittle over the years. Think twenty years and even then as long as you know what you are doing it should not be a problem removing parts and re-attaching them. But yes, the odd clip or so might crack or snap.

All these ‘plastics' tend to detiorate quicker if they are subjected to direct sun light, mostly UV that spoils them. So typically dashboards etc will be made of ‘plastics’ that can withstand sun light better than say a part that is fitted under the dashboard.

I have had the odd cracked dashboard in some of my cars. These days they can be easily and cheaply fixed. All the bits and pieces on a car have wear and tear, so the plastic bits and pieces eventually will wear as well.

There is a huge variety of DIY materials out there to fix plastic bits (E.g. https://www.polyvance.com/Repair-Cracked-Dashboard/) and there are, at least in Europe and the USA specialised companies that go do it for you.

These days there are very few cars, if any, without masses of ‘plastic’ parts. The days of a painted steel dashboard are long gone. So whether you look at an American, European or Japanese car they all have resorted to ‘plastic’. I find there is a huge difference in the quality, the look and feel between different manufacturers. The Americans, by and large, being the worst. To date, a lot of American cars, on the inside at least, look and feel plastic. Tap the dashboard, scratch it with your nail and now do the same in say a BMW or a Mazda. No comparison.

I believe one of the reasons that American cars have this reputation of indestructible engines is that their engines are huge and vastly over dimensioned. My 1990 Jeep Cherokee has a straight six 4.0L engine producing a pathetic 180HP. Of course it is going to last. But it also has appalling fuel efficiency.

I dont agree that the American transmission last that well. When we lived in Kansas City there where transmission workshop on just about every street corner. So the suggestion is at least a lot of them had problems and needed servicing.

As fas I know it is not just Europeans that use electronics in their cars. Everybody does. My 1986 Alfa Romeo Spider, considered by many a true Classic Italian Sports Car, has already two on board computers!

You say
Quote:
Give me a light car with a manual transmission and rear wheel drive over anything made from plastic driven by computers
So how many cars these days comply with that requirement? The manual transmission is still around in abundance, the rear wheel drive is available on a limited number of cars, all cars have plastic and just about all cars have at least one ECU on board. Light car, in my opinion, don’t exist anymore save for the odd specialist car.

The closest I can think of would be a Lotus Elise. But it has plastic bits and a ECU for the engine management, but not much beyond that. There are few similar cars out there, such as the Donkervoort. I have co-owned an Elise for a little while. Hoot to drive.

Jeroen
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Old 3rd April 2016, 11:37   #10
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by Gasolinejunkie View Post

The other issue I have with European cars is they use electronics instead of good engineering.
Electric power steering, Automatic transmissions, adaptive braking and active suspension. Give me a light car with a manual transmission and rear wheel drive over anything made from plastic driven by computers

Name one car produced right now that doesn't have electronics and doesn't have plastic parts. I'm pretty certain the list is a big zero. So why the rant here?

The reason cars are becoming more and more computerized is two fold - one is safety so that the moron in his new car doesn't die or kill anyone else when he crashes it and second is the over the top fuel efficiency and emissions norms being mandated both in EU and in the US.

Last edited by reignofchaos : 3rd April 2016 at 11:39.
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Old 3rd April 2016, 14:08   #11
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
These days there are very few cars, if any, without masses of ‘plastic’ parts. The days of a painted steel dashboard are long gone. So whether you look at an American, European or Japanese car they all have resorted to ‘plastic’. I find there is a huge difference in the quality, the look and feel between different manufacturers. The Americans, by and large, being the worst. To date, a lot of American cars, on the inside at least, look and feel plastic. Tap the dashboard, scratch it with your nail and now do the same in say a BMW or a Mazda. No comparison.
I'm not talking about dashes or interior, my problem is with mechanical parts that are bolted or located next to a hot engine. I've mentioned a few examples further down.
Yes, European cars have better interior that's better insulated but in 15 years the cheap interior on a Honda civic will still hold together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I believe one of the reasons that American cars have this reputation of indestructible engines is that their engines are huge and vastly over dimensioned. My 1990 Jeep Cherokee has a straight six 4.0L engine producing a pathetic 180HP. Of course it is going to last. But it also has appalling fuel efficiency.

I dont agree that the American transmission last that well. When we lived in Kansas City there where transmission workshop on just about every street corner. So the suggestion is at least a lot of them had problems and needed servicing.
1990 Jeep Cherokee is a hard example to hold up to the light. Without being rude, it's not a very good car. Most Jeeps aren't reliable. AND I believe America didn't make many good cars in those three decades (1990 - 2010) except for a few pickup trucks.
Same thing with old American transmissions. The Borg Warners and Turbo 700s were strong but required constant maintenance. It's a pain and it's annoying when your auto from 1995 needs new clutches but it's unacceptable for a 2012 Jeta to need a $4000 valve body at 78,000K

But what the Americans couldn't do at the turn of the century the Japanese excelled in, they had some awesome cars that matched most European hoursepower/ltr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
So how many cars these days comply with that requirement? (Simple, Manual transmission, RWD)
Jeroen
Tons
- Toyota GT86
- Honda S2000
- Nissan 370Z
- Mazda MX5
- Mazda RX8
- Holden Commodore SS
- Ford Falcon F6
- Ford Mustang
- Chevy Camaro
- Dodge Charger
- Dodge Challenger

Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Name one car produced right now that doesn't have electronics and doesn't have plastic parts. I'm pretty certain the list is a big zero. So why the rant here?

The reason cars are becoming more and more computerized is two fold - one is safety so that the moron in his new car doesn't die or kill anyone else when he crashes it and second is the over the top fuel efficiency and emissions norms being mandated both in EU and in the US.
Well, obviously everything will have plastic, even a 1950 Saab and everything will have some form of electronics, unless you have one of those old cars that need a matchstick to turn on the headlights.

My problem is the use of moulded/clip together fittings because they are easy to manufacture and quick to assemble.
If you want examples
- Plastic sump and plastic timing chain housing on Audis.
- Plastic intake hoses & plastic PCV plumbing on on anything german. Something brittle and prone to deterioration shouldn't be next to a hot engine.
- Plastic/bakelite oil filter housing
- Peugeot 307s have a plastic elbow for the turbo oil inlet. 5 points for guessing what happens when it breaks and oil spills on a hot engine!!
- Plastic inlet manifolds. Although this is common on a lot of cars, some house secondary butterflys, on the ML270s & ML320s these get dislodged and find their way into the cylinder or hold the inlet valve valve open while the piston returns to TDC.

These are what I've seen in the trade, I'm sure there are more, and this is a new trend so plastic cars are nearing a decade in age so they're just starting to fail. I dread to see what the future holds.

Now moving to Electronics - like you said everything has fuel injection, ABS, ESP, Airbags and all the software to run those systems and I have no beef with that.
But what about the other 20 computers in the car to run your door management, sun-roof, seat adjustment, headlight washers, entertainment system, climate control...all connected with CANbus through a few hundred kilometers of wiring. Whatever happened to a switch!
Nothing wrong with computers until they or the CANbus fails.
My friend had to get a STEERING WHEEL computer replaced in his 2012 Renault Megan which set him back $2300.

In my opinion I'll forgive a car for for reliability issues or excessive maintenance if it's tuned to the hilt. ie. My ZX14r needs tyres every 3000k, or a Nissan GTR with carbon ceramic brakes that cost $10000 to replace. Those vehicles make the numbers..But an Audi A4 with a 2.0 turbo?? or an E90 BMW 3 series that dumps it's oil??

Last edited by Gasolinejunkie : 3rd April 2016 at 14:18.
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Old 3rd April 2016, 16:36   #12
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Originally Posted by Gasolinejunkie View Post
1990 Jeep Cherokee is a hard example to hold up to the light. Without being rude, it's not a very good car. Most Jeeps aren't reliable.
The original Jeep Cherokee series up to about 2000 were actually pretty solid and reliable. To date there are still many thousands around, although quite a few got taken off the road under the USA Cash for Clunker program. They are simple cars very easy to work on.

The Grand Cherokee was a different story all together and was a pig in its very first incarnation and remains a pig in its current version as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasolinejunkie View Post
AND I believe America didn't make many good cars in those three decades (1990 - 2010) except for a few pickup trucks.
Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasolinejunkie View Post
You actually said:

Quote:
Give me a light car with a manual transmission and rear wheel drive over anything made from plastic driven by computers
- Toyota GT86
- Honda S2000
- Nissan 370Z
- Mazda MX5
- Mazda RX8
- Holden Commodore SS
- Ford Falcon F6
- Ford Mustang
- Chevy Camaro
- Dodge Charger
- Dodge Challenger
I would not consider any of these cars light, by any stretch of the imagination. Every single last one, in its latest version weighs well over a tonnes, some of these top 2 tonnes.

I have owned a Mazda RX8, they were so totally unreliable the dealers couldn’t give them away. Second hand you could pick them up for next to nothing. By the way not a light car either, They weigh close to 1500kg.

And to your ranting and raving about electronics.Have you actually checked how much electronics some of these cars have. The current versions of these car, with possible exception of the Nissan 370Z and the Holden are all brimming with electronics, ranging from fancy digital dashboard, to ESP, fancy power steering systems etc.

Lets take the MX5, Standard (UK version) equipement
- Air conditioning
- Cruise Control with adjustable speed limiter
- Electric windows
- Remote control locking
- Smart Key locking

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great car, but it is not light and it is filled to the brim with electronics and computers. I have owned one of the earlier series at some point in time. Very little electronics on those.

The Honda S2000 was discontinued some years ago, 2009 I believe? Some of its later versions had ESP and electronic throttle fitted as standard. A Honda S2000 weighs in at close to 1300 kg in its last incarnation.

The Honda S2000 had very little electronics besides the ECU motor management, but at 1500kg a bit of a porker. Certainly not light weight?

Maybe you like the way these cars drive so much because of all their (apparently) for you well hidden electronics? Or are these cars specc-ed differently in your neck of the woods?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasolinejunkie View Post
But what about the other 20 computers in the car to run your door management, sun-roof, seat adjustment, headlight washers, entertainment system, climate control...all connected with CANbus through a few hundred kilometers of wiring. Whatever happened to a switch!
Nothing wrong with computers until they or the CANbus fails.
My friend had to get a STEERING WHEEL computer replaced in his 2012 Renault Megan which set him back $2300.
It’s called progress. My Mercedes uses pneumatic systems to power the door locks, boot, adjust the head lights and work the auto box. Extremely reliable up to about 15 years when the rubbers on the actuators start perishing. No matter what materials you use, there is always some degree of wear and tear. I don’t think modern cars get designed to last more then 10 years, couple of hundred thousand kilometers. But if you take good care of them, you can easily keep them running reliably as well. But you will need to replace bits that wear, for whatever the reason.

I see a lot of ranting and raving on car forums on the high degree of electronics and computers on cars. I never get it, because by and large it makes cars better, easier to live and drive with.

There might be problems when things break down. In my experience there are very few people around that have the skills and know how to trouble shoot and fix these sort of problems adequately. Even mainstream dealers in Europe and USA more often than not, lack that skill. They will hook up a car to an OBD analyser and run through some standards test and protocols. And they will replace stuff which can easily be fixed if you know how.

I have dealt over the years with any number of electrical/computer problems on a vast variety of cars. I have never ever had to replace the actual computer.

I have had a few cases where I had to open up the computer. Sometimes that means sawing them open. But even on those cases it was always something simple, like a pin that got bend, a soldering on the PCB that went bad.


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Old 3rd April 2016, 23:50   #13
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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This is video just staggering if you ask me. How can a Chevy costing half the price of a BMW M car can be better than it at almost everything? I never would have thought the german car would take such a whooping in a comparison test .
I can answer that, now luckily I've seen these 2 reviewers before this, doing reviews of other brands and I closed the window within 2 minutes of their claptrap. This video too I just barely managed to watch only so that I can punch a few holes into their logic. The video starts off with them acknowledging that they received backlash for not quite staying on topic matter and going into tangents only they know what for, that's how they do reviews. They start off by favouring one car and stick with it till the end only to spew drivel about the other car for 20 minutes, its unbearable to watch.

A BMW is a BMW, its supposed to cost more and that's for starters. They ranted for 5 minutes about the its steering feeling rubbery, an undulated wavy ride (what if the roads were wavy to begin with?) and yet they don't say one thing about how the Camaro's steering feels, nor its suspension.. all they harped on about is how good it sounds and how Chevy has upped the game. I've not driven either, all I'm saying is why not comment on the finer aspects like steering feel, handling, suspension, grip, exhaust etc for BOTH sequentially?

In reality both cars are just edging each other out in certain aspects here, and the smaller engine did just fine against that behemoth sitting inside the Camaro's hood. By no means is it a massive victory for Chevy as they claim. As for the prices, M3 as admitted by them does have the fancier interiors, better build and heft and those do cost money. The main difference is in the brand perception.. as of today the BMW certainly has the better heritage and innovation track-record for which they get away by charging the premium.

In the end its the drivers preference which wins the deal, .5 second faster timings, slightly easier drift abilities or bigger engine note are just aspects of preference and not the absolute. My problem is not with Chevy at all, but with the way they conducted the comparison. They both are fast cars and the comparison ends there before becoming apples and oranges. Generally every review has limited scope of criticism and they are as follows :

- Light steering = numb & not confidence inspiring
- Tight steering = hard on forearms +not quick to respond
- Soft suspension = wallowy & not confidence inspiring
- Hard suspension = bone jarring ride and noisy
- Light build = bad build quality, bad for dynamics, no heft etc etc
- Heavy build = engine strain, poor acceleration, terrible mileage etc etc
- Big engine = poor mileage, more weight, not ecological.
- Small engine = poor power, poor torque, just plain poor.

American muscle cars though unfamiliar here in India, are legends in their own right but Germans have been doing that for far longer. While these 2 cars may be very close in terms of performance each have their own quirks and advantages too. At the end the consumers purchasing either might not have drag-races or value for money in their minds at all.

Last edited by dark.knight : 4th April 2016 at 00:06.
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Old 4th April 2016, 01:59   #14
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A better comparison would have been between the Corvette C7 and it's more expensively priced German competitor.
However price alone shouldn't be a factor. The GTR is known to be amazing VFM, but despite having great numbers on paper, many riders don't like it as it doesn't provide the same fun/scare as a supercar does with similar stats on paper.
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Old 4th April 2016, 07:38   #15
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Default Re: BMW M4 vs Chevy Camaro SS; How fat is the German profit margin?

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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
I can answer that, now luckily I've seen these 2 reviewers before this, doing reviews of other brands and I closed the window within 2 minutes of their claptrap. This video too I just barely managed to watch only so that I can punch a few holes into their logic. The video starts off with them acknowledging that they received backlash for not quite staying on topic matter and going into tangents only they know what for, that's how they do reviews. They start off by favouring one car and stick with it till the end only to spew drivel about the other car for 20 minutes, its unbearable to watch.

A BMW is a BMW, its supposed to cost more and that's for starters. They ranted for 5 minutes about the its steering feeling rubbery, an undulated wavy ride (what if the roads were wavy to begin with?) and yet they don't say one thing about how the Camaro's steering feels, nor its suspension.. all they harped on about is how good it sounds and how Chevy has upped the game. I've not driven either, all I'm saying is why not comment on the finer aspects like steering feel, handling, suspension, grip, exhaust etc for BOTH sequentially?

In reality both cars are just edging each other out in certain aspects here, and the smaller engine did just fine against that behemoth sitting inside the Camaro's hood. By no means is it a massive victory for Chevy as they claim. As for the prices, M3 as admitted by them does have the fancier interiors, better build and heft and those do cost money. The main difference is in the brand perception.. as of today the BMW certainly has the better heritage and innovation track-record for which they get away by charging the premium.

In the end its the drivers preference which wins the deal, .5 second faster timings, slightly easier drift abilities or bigger engine note are just aspects of preference and not the absolute. My problem is not with Chevy at all, but with the way they conducted the comparison. They both are fast cars and the comparison ends there before becoming apples and oranges. Generally every review has limited scope of criticism and they are as follows :

- Light steering = numb & not confidence inspiring
- Tight steering = hard on forearms +not quick to respond
- Soft suspension = wallowy & not confidence inspiring
- Hard suspension = bone jarring ride and noisy
- Light build = bad build quality, bad for dynamics, no heft etc etc
- Heavy build = engine strain, poor acceleration, terrible mileage etc etc
- Big engine = poor mileage, more weight, not ecological.
- Small engine = poor power, poor torque, just plain poor.

American muscle cars though unfamiliar here in India, are legends in their own right but Germans have been doing that for far longer. While these 2 cars may be very close in terms of performance each have their own quirks and advantages too. At the end the consumers purchasing either might not have drag-races or value for money in their minds at all.
What do you mean not a big win for chevy? Spec for spec everything the m4 did, the chevy did it better/equally good for nearly half the price, HALF. There was no glaring deficiencies with the camaro in any department as well. When you factor in such price and value for money difference each and every flaw of the M4 is going to get scrutinized that much more harshly. For the money you pay for the m4 you could buy a Camaro ss and a well specced 5 series on top of that as a daily driver.

If this is not a victory, then what is? What more do you want for chevy to do? Just because something is a BMW/Merc/Audi doesn't give it any immunity from being compared to lesser brands.

I am sorry, even though the whole world could overlook all of chevy's victory over the m4 and still prefer the BMW because of it being a BMW and an M car, I PERSONALLY will gladly give up my privilege to buy the M car and for the same $95,000 equivalent budget would prefer a Camaro and a 5 series.

Last edited by nakul0888 : 4th April 2016 at 07:47.
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