BMW M5 Six-Speed : NOT the ultimate driving machine? - Team-BHP

GTO · 2nd January 2007, 16:31

So news is out that you cant switch the DSC entire off in the manual M5. A pity keeping in mind the statement of CEO (BMW N/A):

Quote:

The day when we don't allow the driver to turn off such a device will be the day when we are no longer BMW.

So you cant really do burn-rubber launches in the new M5!!

Sources & Suggested articles:

Article 1

Article 2

Mpower · 2nd January 2007, 22:05

Is this only for US market or global?

Americans are trigger happy when it comes to sueing and BMW had problems with engines when E46 M3 came out.

GTO · 3rd January 2007, 08:36

I dont think its USA specific. But would it not be simple to get an after-market solution to this?

Mpower · 3rd January 2007, 09:22

Oh yeah. I am sure BMW tuners are laughing all the way to the bank.

Remapping probably of both ECU as well as DSC controller.

rahul_intlad · 27th January 2007, 20:17

BMW M5 manual mess-up

Quote:

M5's traction control 'off' switch nixed for a reason

When Automobile got their paws on a six-speed manual version of the M5, they were none to pleased that BMW's engineers wouldn't allow drivers to fully disable the traction control. At the time, we assumed that BMW's legal boffins pictured overly enthusiastic Americans, stomping the go pedal and promptly winding up in a ditch.

Not so, according to Car. The magazine learned that the M division had no way of controlling clutch plate actuation, which would normally quell the axle tramp caused by the V10's prodigious power delivery. Acceleration times would rise and drivetrain components' lifetimes would fall. Hence, the only conceivable solution was to make the DSC a permanent fixture within the Bimmer's brain.

Still, you can partly disable the system in M Dynamic mode within iDrive (if you dare), but that may not be enough for those who want to test the limits of adhesion of the 285s in the rear.

[Source: Autoblog.com]

Quote:

Without the benefit of computer control for the opening and closing of the clutch plates, M division’s engineers couldn’t eliminate axle tramp under hard take-offs. The only solution was to make it impossible to fully switch out the DSC stability system, although you can still employ the half-way house M Dynamic mode which is probably enough for all but the most crazed sideways obsessives.
[Source: CAR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpower

Is this only for US market or global?

BMW has no plans to bring the manual M5 to Europe[from the same article in CAR]

sajo · 27th January 2007, 22:05

In a recent Car and Driver comparo between the M5, S6 and the E63, they chose to include the manual version of the M5. It was full half a second slower than the SMG to 60mph, and slower round the track too. Not surprisingly, it came last in that test. Whats more, it was also the most expensive.

Rehaan · 27th January 2007, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by sajo

It was full half a second slower than the SMG to 60mph, and slower round the track too. Not surprisingly, it came last in that test. Whats more, it was also the most expensive.

The funny thing is that it would still be the car i would pick from those 4 !
And im sure a lot of die hard enthusiasts would agree with me too!

As for not being able to entirely switch off the DSC.... i dont think its SUCH a huge issue.... but will have to wait and see exactly how intrusive it is on its lowest setting.

cya
R

amitverma · 27th January 2007, 22:22

i dont understand the deal with BMW to offer manuals only in America.
regarding ~sajo's post, mayb the m5 manual is slower than the SMG but it just very simply is more fun to drive. it wud make u feel that u propelled it 60 mph, not some box of electronics.
but what i dont understand is that why i care, i aint spending those $80k.
but BMW should. And I really mean, should sell the manual everywhere.

OT: since the manual is not available nowhere outside US, the M5s imported in India, are all SMGs?

lamborghini · 27th January 2007, 22:31

@ sajo - i was going to say that. Did you notice that even though the audi was better in almost everything, the merc won by 1 point? Unfair dude!

@Rehaan - It would be the S6 for me. A Lamborghini Gallardo engine. Droooool!! The M5 is noce no doubt but the manual ain't as impressive as the old one. Would rather get the M3.

rahul_intlad · 31st January 2007, 18:51

Official explanation from BMW:

BMW explains why it’s manual transmission E60 BMW M5’s DSC stability control cannot be disabled.The issue is with the huge amount of power and torque that the engine outputs - it causes excessive axle tramp.

What is axle tramp exactly? Axle tramp is when a wheel moves up and down very very violently, with such force that it actually leaves the ground - like a car hopping. A problem with putting power down to the wheels, worse than torque steer. It is caused by the axle rotating slightly with the wheels then springing back repeatedly.

With the 7-speed SMG III-equipped E60 BMW M5, BMW could fine tune the operation of clutch plates to combat axle tramp during crazy tyre burning starts even with DSC off, but this was just not possible with a pure manual gearbox with a pedal-operated clutch. BMW’s solution - leave DSC permanently on but offer a mode that is less intervening called M Dynamic.

Source: www.paultan.org

iraghava · 31st January 2007, 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahul_intlad

What is axle tramp exactly? Axle tramp is when a wheel moves up and down very very violently, with such force that it actually leaves the ground - like a car hopping. A problem with putting power down to the wheels, worse than torque steer. It is caused by the axle rotating slightly with the wheels then springing back repeatedly.

To view a very good & clear example watch the classic car chase in the movie Bullitt. During some scenes you can distinctly see Steve McQueen's Mustang displaying Axle Tramp during hard accelaration.

rahul_intlad · 31st January 2007, 19:18

Did not know about axle tramp earlier,will make it a point to watch the movie and look out for the phenomenon.

1Day · 31st January 2007, 23:02

isnt it the same as wheel hop??

GTO · 1st February 2007, 09:16

Quote:

BMW explains why it’s manual transmission E60 BMW M5’s DSC stability control cannot be disabled.The issue is with the huge amount of power and torque that the engine outputs - it causes excessive axle tramp.

Absolute rubbish!! BMW has only done this to prevent burnt clutches and the subsequent warranty replacements.

Thil · 5th February 2007, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

Absolute rubbish!! BMW has only done this to prevent burnt clutches and the subsequent warranty replacements.

Exactly ..It;s no longer the "Ultimate Driving Machine"..

If always my Computer controls my driving style then why should i wanna drive a BMW .I could do that in a Civic or Corolla itself !..

Bad excuse BMW.

2nd January 2007, 22:05	#2 (permalink)
Mpower Team-BHP Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago/B'lore Posts: 3,592 View My Garage	Is this only for US market or global? Americans are trigger happy when it comes to sueing and BMW had problems with engines when E46 M3 came out. __________________ The difference between the men and the boys....................is the speed of their toys.

3rd January 2007, 08:36	#3 (permalink)
GTO Super-Admin Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 11,857 View My Garage	I dont think its USA specific. But would it not be simple to get an after-market solution to this? __________________ GTO Self-imposed limits are the only type that exist. Break them....then, make it a habit. Exceed. Please don't PM for support. Use the Contact Form instead. Please read the NEW Team-BHP FAQ section for all your queries.

3rd January 2007, 09:22	#4 (permalink)
Mpower Team-BHP Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago/B'lore Posts: 3,592 View My Garage	Oh yeah. I am sure BMW tuners are laughing all the way to the bank. Remapping probably of both ECU as well as DSC controller. __________________ The difference between the men and the boys....................is the speed of their toys.

27th January 2007, 22:05	#6 (permalink)
sajo BHPian Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pune Posts: 888	In a recent Car and Driver comparo between the M5, S6 and the E63, they chose to include the manual version of the M5. It was full half a second slower than the SMG to 60mph, and slower round the track too. Not surprisingly, it came last in that test. Whats more, it was also the most expensive. __________________ Its big, slow, thirsty and American - but love is strange!

27th January 2007, 22:22	#8 (permalink)
amitverma BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Delhi Posts: 307	i dont understand the deal with BMW to offer manuals only in America. regarding ~sajo's post, mayb the m5 manual is slower than the SMG but it just very simply is more fun to drive. it wud make u feel that u propelled it 60 mph, not some box of electronics. but what i dont understand is that why i care, i aint spending those $80k. but BMW should. And I really mean, should sell the manual everywhere. OT: since the manual is not available nowhere outside US, the M5s imported in India, are all SMGs? __________________ GM need not make a Hummer Hatch - Fiat Already Made PALIO

27th January 2007, 22:31	#9 (permalink)
lamborghini Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Mumbai/Smithfield, RI, USA Posts: 2,712 View My Garage	@ sajo - i was going to say that. Did you notice that even though the audi was better in almost everything, the merc won by 1 point? Unfair dude! @Rehaan - It would be the S6 for me. A Lamborghini Gallardo engine. Droooool!! The M5 is noce no doubt but the manual ain't as impressive as the old one. Would rather get the M3. __________________ ¢нєєяѕ ℓαмвσ lamborghinirules@gmail.com

31st January 2007, 18:51	#10 (permalink)
rahul_intlad Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pune Posts: 1,582	Official explanation from BMW: BMW explains why it’s manual transmission E60 BMW M5’s DSC stability control cannot be disabled.The issue is with the huge amount of power and torque that the engine outputs - it causes excessive axle tramp. What is axle tramp exactly? Axle tramp is when a wheel moves up and down very very violently, with such force that it actually leaves the ground - like a car hopping. A problem with putting power down to the wheels, worse than torque steer. It is caused by the axle rotating slightly with the wheels then springing back repeatedly. With the 7-speed SMG III-equipped E60 BMW M5, BMW could fine tune the operation of clutch plates to combat axle tramp during crazy tyre burning starts even with DSC off, but this was just not possible with a pure manual gearbox with a pedal-operated clutch. BMW’s solution - leave DSC permanently on but offer a mode that is less intervening called M Dynamic. Source: www.paultan.org

31st January 2007, 19:18	#12 (permalink)
rahul_intlad Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pune Posts: 1,582	Did not know about axle tramp earlier,will make it a point to watch the movie and look out for the phenomenon.

31st January 2007, 23:02	#13 (permalink)
1Day Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago/Delhi Posts: 1,219 View My Garage Infractions: 0/1 (7)	isnt it the same as wheel hop?? __________________ 400hp of awesome fun!! The Almighty Corvette KILR RYD = Vette Ordered Red/Grey Premium GT-R (Hopefully Aug delivery)

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