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Old 17th April 2007, 19:26   #31
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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
It tells me that a 7 liter engine makes only 30 lb-ft more than a 5.7 liter engine.




There are Honda Civics that do 8 seconds. Your claim that american cars do 6,7 or 8 seconds from displacement alone therefore proves NOTHING.
Drag racing is really not my thing so i wouldnt comment on it

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I agree the Corvette has innovated new manufacturing methods and new materials for mass-production like balsa wood etc, but as a technological powerhouse, it fails. As a show of engine technology, it fails. I doubt anything can change that. Maybe it is a better everyday sportscar, but dont anyone EVER try to tell me that you use even 10% of its capabilities on the street. I wont take that bull-crap. Sportscars' capabilities are measured on the track. Not on the street. And on the track, the present-day Carrera GT is faster than ANY present day Corvette. What happens in the future is different.
Thats where you are wrong and missing to see the technological strides the corvette team has made, no wonder the aston martin DBR9s still get creamed, the only way they can keep themselves in the competition is by threatening to leave or have restrictions put on the corvette cars like adding 500lb of weight etc etc..anyhow no doubt the porsches and ferraris try to bring the latest and the greatest from F1 and lemans etc but your statement that carrera GT is faster on the race track doesnt really hold a candle when you see that the Z06 wasnt designed to tackle the Carrera GT and in many ways doesnt match up to the specs of the uber hypercar.

I even showed you with full examples that a Z06 without any engine mod(just tire swap) could keep up with the Carrera GT on a race track which speaks volumes for the car considering what carrera gt is considered in the hyper car space(if you forget some people call it better than the enzo). Anyhow Z06 is lighter than the CGT btw not by much but is still lighter. After all the uber exotic stuff porsche used in them couldnt get them to drop below 3000 lb.. Also the z06 has a short fall of about 100 hp which alone is massive. Looking at all this no one could even imagine or put them in the same league but real numbers speak for themselves..

Give the choice it would be carrera gt every single time for me, but we are not talking personal choices here but pure facts and i stick with facts no matter what my choice is..carrera gt is one of the sexiest cars alive but that doesnt take away the capability built into the z06 and today's corvettes..

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Old 17th April 2007, 19:51   #32
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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
There are Honda Civics that do 8 seconds. Your claim that american cars do 6,7 or 8 seconds from displacement alone therefore proves NOTHING.
i do know that but what u meant was that for these engines that was not the maximum power and still has lot of power left in it.
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Old 17th April 2007, 21:45   #33
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Thats where you are wrong and missing to see the technological strides the corvette team has made,

but we are not talking personal choices here but pure facts and i stick with facts no matter what my choice is.
How about backing up that "technological strides" statement of yours with some "pure facts" ? What kind of strides have been made?

I hope you arent talking about the guiding hand of the EPA which "enables" you to shift from 1st to 4th directly. Yeah folks, thats how they achieve their fuel economy. By making the 6 speed gearbox a 4 speed gearbox! Or maybe cutting out a cylinder or two while you're not looking!

The corvette is NOT a technological pioneer like the Porsches, its only been successful at implementing aftermarket-type parts into the production process. And I respect them for that. The Carrera GT, on the other hand, successfully implemented many key technologies like no flywheel, carbon-ceramic brakes, carbon-ceramic clutch, carbon-fiber monocoque chassis etc. I am sure there are many more.

P.S. I do not own a Carrera GT. I only read about it in Wikipedia. D-Uh!
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Old 17th April 2007, 21:56   #34
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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
How about backing up that "technological strides" statement of yours with some "pure facts" ? What kind of strides have been made?

I hope you arent talking about the guiding hand of the EPA which "enables" you to shift from 1st to 4th directly. Yeah folks, thats how they achieve their fuel economy. By making the 6 speed gearbox a 4 speed gearbox! Or maybe cutting out a cylinder or two while you're not looking!

The corvette is NOT a technological pioneer like the Porsches, its only been successful at implementing aftermarket-type parts into the production process. And I respect them for that. The Carrera GT, on the other hand, successfully implemented many key technologies like no flywheel, carbon-ceramic brakes, carbon-ceramic clutch, carbon-fiber monocoque chassis etc. I am sure there are many more.

P.S. I do not own a Carrera GT. I only read about it in Wikipedia. D-Uh!
You still skip telling me with all those technological advancements from porsche, how come in overall performance(which matters most), its hardly that much better?

I am a tech guy, so please dont be telling me that making something high tech is always better, sometimes you dont need extreem tech to reach the end result, it is at times for bragging rights and thats what porsche is great at doing, bragging, but it doesnt do any good since someone with "no tech"(as you put it) comes so close in the end results which is sad. and i didnt have to read any pedia to figure this out..

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Old 17th April 2007, 22:17   #35
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since you're a tech guy, you maybe knowing that achieving the last 10% takes 90% of the effort. Thats where Porsche excels. Its called the art of perfection, hardly an art known to the Corvette.

P.S: I didnt refer to any pedia to figure this one out. I am a hardcore tech guy and I believe in hardcore engineering, which is what Porsche knows how to do. GM on the other hand, knows very well how to hype and sell stuff.
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Old 18th April 2007, 02:44   #36
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I have been no fan of the Corvette. I've seen a couple up close, and while they have nice V8 tracks, their build quality is pretty abysmal. My Baleno does better. And I'm quite willing to believe JC (for once) on their horrible road noise issues, etc. But I must admit, the evidence in favour of the Z06, and possibly its successors, is overwhelming. It seems that Chevy has made giant leaps in the handling/driving department, and I've also read a couple of articles where a stock car is doing 10.xx on slicks. I'm impressed.

While it's true that power/displacement ratio is a benchmark of engineering standards, it's not necessarily everything as far as a racecar goes. There are a lot of things that go into building a fast car, and Chevy seem to have nailed most of them.

Of course, my vast experience with Porsches, Corvettes, and Vipers should be taken into account as well...
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Old 18th April 2007, 03:32   #37
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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
since you're a tech guy, you maybe knowing that achieving the last 10% takes 90% of the effort. Thats where Porsche excels. Its called the art of perfection, hardly an art known to the Corvette.

P.S: I didnt refer to any pedia to figure this one out. I am a hardcore tech guy and I believe in hardcore engineering, which is what Porsche knows how to do. GM on the other hand, knows very well how to hype and sell stuff.
Riiigghhtt!! The hype surely is from GM and not from those germans oki dok if you say so...

BTW it wasnt that the corvette couldnt get carrera gt in its back pocket, it was never its target segment, carrera gt was a hyper car, z06 was a road going track car with best of both the worlds which came soo close to the engineering perfection from porsche. There is no doubt in my mind that the Z06 with 612 hp and some carbon brakes and some sticky tires(all to make a level playing field) would destroy the CGT on a race track and all that would cost from the factory is no more than 15-25 extra grand which still leaves you with enough to give yourself a nice roof over your head..think about it, you are just blinded by the fact that wow, porsche is making some unquestionably great products..or that american make unquestionably inferior product. you miss the biggest picture of them all price, for a price any car company could make a car as good as you see from the ultra exclusive brands..GM doesnt chose to play in the carrera gt segment but i think they are now going to, as you will see with the upcoming 2009 Corvette SS.

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I have been no fan of the Corvette. I've seen a couple up close, and while they have nice V8 tracks, their build quality is pretty abysmal. My Baleno does better. And I'm quite willing to believe JC (for once) on their horrible road noise issues, etc. But I must admit, the evidence in favour of the Z06, and possibly its successors, is overwhelming. It seems that Chevy has made giant leaps in the handling/driving department, and I've also read a couple of articles where a stock car is doing 10.xx on slicks. I'm impressed.

While it's true that power/displacement ratio is a benchmark of engineering standards, it's not necessarily everything as far as a racecar goes. There are a lot of things that go into building a fast car, and Chevy seem to have nailed most of them.

Of course, my vast experience with Porsches, Corvettes, and Vipers should be taken into account as well...

Fair enough, but you dont have to be a fan to admire a product and as you did which is great. I dont know which generation "fit and finish" corvette did you see that was worse than your "BALEANO" but i can tell you the new ones are far far better than the older ones..but there is still a lot left to be desired but then again you have to compromise somewhere if you dont want to pay the price for it..

People who say that porsche's and ferrari and lambo's are the greatest and what GM has done doesnt compare are only kidding themselves..

being a car nut, nothing could make me more exicted as seeing a picture of the latest ferrari/lambo/porsche but when it comes to comparisons i dont have any soft spots for my favorites. Its the sexy appeal attached to these products that make them more desirable than the others along with some other qualities..

Last edited by 1Day : 18th April 2007 at 03:41.
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Old 18th April 2007, 03:43   #38
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The previous gen ones. I dunno which code though. Same one that Jezza pokes the rear bumper of, with his finger, and bumper goes in one inch.

And it's Baleno.
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Old 18th April 2007, 04:29   #39
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Originally Posted by 1Day View Post
BTW it wasnt that the corvette couldnt get carrera gt in its back pocket, it was never its target segment,

..... z06 was a road going track car with best of both the worlds which came soo close to the engineering perfection from porsche.

....There is no doubt in my mind that the Z06 with 612 hp and some carbon brakes and some sticky tires(all to make a level playing field) would destroy the CGT on a race track
Then why the hell are you comparing the Z06 and the Carrera at all? Going by your logic, if I spend 25k on the Carrera I can make it run faster than any corvette on earth. That doesnt mean anything at all. We (actually, you started it) are comparing stock corvettes to stock Carrera GTs. Get that?


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......think about it, you are just blinded by the fact that wow, porsche is making some unquestionably great products..or that american make unquestionably inferior product.

And you, sir, are blinded by the fact that you own a corvette and you want to savagely defend your buying decision by battling it out on, of all things, an internet forum. Post some autocross times or come to Waterford Hills, run with the big guns, put your damn money where your mouth is.

We have all heard that when the flag drops, the b*ll****e stops. Why dont you prove that?

Just because you have a corvette, and you socialized with some people who have driven exotic machinery, doesnt make your opinion any more valuable than mine. If you have the cajunas, go to the track and prove it.

You said people who read about it vs. people who have seen it. If you want that to hold water, maybe you should think about proving it on the track.

Of course, nothing personal against you or the corvette.

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Old 18th April 2007, 04:39   #40
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Then why the hell are you comparing the Z06 and the Carrera at all? Going by your logic, if I spend 25k on the Carrera I can make it run faster than any corvette on earth. That doesnt mean anything at all. We (actually, you started it) are comparing stock corvettes to stock Carrera GTs. Get that?

And you, sir, are blinded by the fact that you own a corvette and you want to savagely defend your buying decision by battling it out on, of all things, an internet forum. Post some autocross times or come to Waterford Hills, run with the big guns, put your damn money where your mouth is.

Of course, nothing personal against you or the corvette.
Firstly i dont take this personal..

I am comparing, because they are comparable in the real world, i said that the companies making the cars didnt think that they were comparable.

and by that really (sorry to say) "dumb" logic of spending more money on a car that already costs 1/2 a million bucks, you really missed the mark there. I am not asking for a whole lot, just leveling the playing field.

And if you think i am trying to justify my buying decision, then you couldnt be more wrong, because my first choice(when i was relatively new at this) was the 997 911 S but then when i saw and drove the vette after i test drove the 911(let me put it over night), i couldnt justify the extra expensive on the porsche, so i am sorry i am not justifying anything, just trying to show you what is out there in the real world, you can be snobbish about it and say that the corvette is a POS and porsche(or any other italaian/german) is the it all(to be cool), or you can accept that yes corvette is right up in the big guns "a$$e$" and it worries them..

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Old 18th April 2007, 06:01   #41
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and by that really (sorry to say) "dumb" logic of spending more money on a car that already costs 1/2 a million bucks, you really missed the mark there. I am not asking for a whole lot, just leveling the playing field.
Sorry for being dumb and illogical, and missing out the price factor. Since we are disagreeing on the issue of the corvette vs. 1/2 million sportscar, and the solution to that, you said was the following:


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There is no doubt in my mind that the Z06 with 612 hp and some carbon brakes and some sticky tires(all to make a level playing field) would destroy the CGT on a race track and all that would cost from the factory is no more than 15-25 extra grand


you miss the biggest picture of them all price,

lets take a car that wasnt meant to take the corvette head to head at all. Lets take a $34,000 Subaru WRX STi. Then we will pack off this car to Crawford performance and give them a $15,000 check. They will do everything necessary and send back the car to you.

This car will not only CREAM a stock Z06 on a drag strip, it will also outrun it on the track. And it will also run in street traffic when you turn down the boost. And it will also give you decent mpg. And.....you get the idea.

But there's one thing this car wii never have compared to a Corvette, and that is exclusivity. Head-turning ability. Approval of people who appreciate technology.

i am saying the same thing about the corvette vs the carrera. but in my example the subaru is the corvette and the corvette is the carrera. Got that?

So please compare apples to apples only, and not lemons. I took issue to the fact that you compared a stock Z06 to a stock Carrera GT, and even speculated that it will be faster if you do this and that. I can come up with even more extreme (and less ricey, for example, a $15,000 Dodge Neon) examples but you get what I am trying to say.
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Old 18th April 2007, 08:21   #42
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It tells me that a 7 liter engine makes only 30 lb-ft more than a 5.7 liter engine.
What I meant was an engine producing 100 HP less produces 30 ft lbs more torque. Usually the HP figures and Torque in ft lbs is pretty close for most of the engines. But it is not the case for the Carrera GT.
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Old 18th April 2007, 09:12   #43
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Sorry for being dumb and illogical, and missing out the price factor. Since we are disagreeing on the issue of the corvette vs. 1/2 million sportscar, and the solution to that, you said was the following:


lets take a car that wasnt meant to take the corvette head to head at all. Lets take a $34,000 Subaru WRX STi. Then we will pack off this car to Crawford performance and give them a $15,000 check. They will do everything necessary and send back the car to you.

This car will not only CREAM a stock Z06 on a drag strip, it will also outrun it on the track. And it will also run in street traffic when you turn down the boost. And it will also give you decent mpg. And.....you get the idea.

But there's one thing this car wii never have compared to a Corvette, and that is exclusivity. Head-turning ability. Approval of people who appreciate technology.

i am saying the same thing about the corvette vs the carrera. but in my example the subaru is the corvette and the corvette is the carrera. Got that?

So please compare apples to apples only, and not lemons. I took issue to the fact that you compared a stock Z06 to a stock Carrera GT, and even speculated that it will be faster if you do this and that. I can come up with even more extreme (and less ricey, for example, a $15,000 Dodge Neon) examples but you get what I am trying to say.
Again you went off here, i think STi's are one of the ugliest cars ever made, but at the same time i think they are very capable cars.

So going from there, let me clarify what I said if you missed my point:

Z06 on its own without any engine work and just a competitive tire swap is about as good as a 1/2 mil car on a track, but when i said drop 25k on upgraded brakes a 612hp engine mod what i meant was, take it to the carrera gt level in terms of spec and then compare the cars, you will see that the Z06 will out pace the CGT by a long way..(but you dont have to do this to see how capable the Z06 really is)

Now taking the exact same logic and applying to your STi, i would hardly doubt it would be able to hang anywhere close a Z06 on a drag strip or track if you bumped the hp to 505 in the STi, sti are extremely capable cars, but they are not in the same league of performance, sorry, it just doesnt happen, show me a STi lap time in any major circuit around the world, stock or modded, i would love to see them..(may be i am just uninformed about it), it might be quicker than an M5 around the track but that also i hardly doubt and btw M5s are about 400-500lb heavier than the STi, M5s were about 7:56 on the ring with 507hp..

btw chicago is filled with modded STis and EVOs(rescently more STis), and i have had my fare share of run with them, so i know their capability with hand..they specially want to run you when its cold out since they have the advantage with AWD traction..

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Old 18th April 2007, 18:31   #44
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why would i care if its ugly. thats totally besides the point.

Uninformed is right. Here's a video of the exact same Crawford Performance STi at Willow Springs:



Read the sidebar. It says the Z06 set the lap record of 1.28.7 and the STi was faster at 1.26.8 .

On the drag strip:




I'm not saying all STi's are faster, just saying it is possible and it has been done.

But you totally missed my point (or didnt care enough to address it), which was:

Quote:
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But there's one thing this car wii never have compared to a Corvette, and that is exclusivity. Head-turning ability. Approval of people who appreciate technology.

i am saying the same thing about the corvette vs the carrera. but in my example the subaru is the corvette and the corvette is the carrera. Got that?
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Old 20th April 2007, 05:52   #45
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why would i care if its ugly. thats totally besides the point.
I agree it doesnt validate anything, but that was only a venting of my personal opinion on the car's looks, but i do give it props for being fast and when tuned right to be very quick.

Quote:
Uninformed is right. Here's a video of the exact same Crawford Performance STi at Willow Springs:



Read the sidebar. It says the Z06 set the lap record of 1.28.7 and the STi was faster at 1.26.8 .

On the drag strip:




I'm not saying all STi's are faster, just saying it is possible and it has been done.

But you totally missed my point (or didnt care enough to address it), which was:
Ok here is my analysis on this and infact i got people who were there that day, all I had to do was ask what happened here by experts who run this circuit.

Firstly never ever try and compare cars with different drivers and especially a highly track tuned car with a regular street car.

I compared professional times from professional drivers on a race track(even though i know walter has much more experience than john). There is a 350hp highly tuned Chevy Aveo(ewhh!!) that runs big willow in the low 1.20s on that track but that thing is striped to the boot and with full blown track setup, now does that make Chevy Aveo better car than any of the cars in Q. I dont think so. The reason is because it was a highly tuned track setup with unbelievable brakes, suspension, light as hell and had a "near-pro" driver driving that car..

The C6Z06 driver made some mistakes in that video, i could point them out to you with a timeline if you want. This STi driver as I have come to know is an extreemly "pro-like" driver with sh!t load of experience. Did you see how the C6Z06 let the guy go buy when it was not really required(its towards the end). I have witneses who were there that day and who know both the drivers very well. The C6Z06 driver wasnt there to prove anything on the track where as the STi driver was pretty much running a "commerical" for crawford and i think the video had it all wrong(saw another video of this car), the Power on this car is not 450whp it is more like 650hp and it is lightened(i dont know by how much, stis are really light cars) and has track suspension and brakes which are extremely extremely important. I am not taking anything away from this STi but it was a very highly tuned version of the car which really doesnt give an apples to apples comparison, i was comparing almost stock setup with CGT and Z06. Anyhow surely this STi @ willow had a kick @$$ setup and driver with all props to them.

And in the 400m race, let me not get started, it was a base C6 with a bad bad driver(with too wheel spin on terrible surface) where as the Sti had AWD going for it. Even a fool could launch a powerful AWD car,

Anyhow the important video was the willow springs one and it seems according to the experts that these times were almost as quick as a bullet on this track as for stock cars 1.30 is almost an upper limit. In my(and some expert) opinion the Z06 can easily reduce the time down to the STi with some skilled driver and a minor track setup(sway bar change and some suspension tunning)

But in the end this video showed how great the STi is when setup like a mad machine but doesnt show that the STi is more powerful overall.

And with respect to your argument that would anyone look at the Vette in comparison to the CGT, i probably dont think so and you are right but i always talked about performance(and was mostly keep it stock, where as you tried to compare a really track modded car with a stock version).

Still thanks for the video it was good to discuss this with people and get to know more on what was happening that day.

(Sorry for the delay had product launch last 2 days)

Last edited by 1Day : 20th April 2007 at 05:58.
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