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Old 20th April 2007, 22:53   #61
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Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
Well, that's not what track-bred would mean. Why isn't the CGT a street car? It even has Birch wood on the gear knob.
what i meant was the z06 was built keeping in mind the daily use or drive car where as the c6r are built only for one reason track.
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Old 20th April 2007, 23:04   #62
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Well, that's not what track-bred would mean. Why isn't the CGT a street car? It even has Birch wood on the gear knob.
Come on, porsche 911 is a street car, GT3(definitely), GT3RS(most definitely), GT2(almost) are a track cars, so i hope you are not implying to me that porsche's top end wouldnt be more of a track car than a street car? Its more of track car than Z06 for sure.

You are right in saying that all cars see track time and Z06 was honed on the ring, i wouldnt question it, but the suspension, the brakes on the CGT are more tuned towards the track than they are for the street use and GT3s and GT3RSs are most definitely tuned only for track. I was comparing the cream of porsche with a pseudo track car(Z06) and show that it still dominates most of them..isnt it an eye shocking thing that Z06 beats a GT3RS??

Now thats what i am talking about, i am not saying these machines are bad, they are bad, but bad @$$(in a good way). People who only see higher dollar cars are priced so because they must be better is the attitude change i am looking for. I dont think because porsche puts soo much tech into its cars and their cars are soo expensive so obviously the Z06 is no comparison, thats not what the point is. I went out of contenxt with the CGT but what my point really was that This particular american piece of machinery is as good as some of the best german/italians out there without the price tag and "tech".

No wonder Z06 suddenly has become the bench mark in performance in this segment and all the mags cant help but include it in all their high performance tests..

PS: Good to see here man..(long time)

Last edited by 1Day : 20th April 2007 at 23:14.
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Old 20th April 2007, 23:24   #63
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Originally Posted by tsxei View Post
Thanks ananthkamath and 1Day for making this the most entertaining thread ever Towards the end I forgot what the original issue was and had to go back a couple of pages to see how it all started. Anyway, as entertaining as it is, I am sensing a bit of aggression. So lets stop this hate. Nothing is going to get proven when you are just comparing numbers posted by someone. There is no perfect car. Every car beats the other in one way or other. Competition is good. It helps drive the automotive industry so we can keep getting all these goodies. So there, that is a piece of my wisdow
i am glad it was entertaining, i was planning on keeping it to a good hearted discussion, a little agression did come up, if i started it i can apologize, not an issue..

anyhow i agree with you that all cars are great and some better in some things than the other and thats what i am getting at.

I clearly mentioned i would take a CGT over any Z06 any given time of day but the fact remained that some people couldnt help but point out that american cars(including the great ones) were of no comparison and thats what i was trying to prove wrong. I know what a CGT is and what it stands for, but the fact remains, i was looking for respect for the car where its due and not just nudged because of some mental block towards american tech.

I think i would defend the Nissan GTR as much as I would the Z06, i am car guy and dont think bad of great cars, but performance war is performance war, why pick sides because of personal preference, rather pick what you can see is better in that department.

If someone argued with me on the looks of the Z06 vs a CGT may be i wouldnt have gone to provide a response, because i would have agreed even though its a personal thing, but performance is concrete which porsche/ferrari/lambo fan boys can not argue with.(btw i am a ferrari/lambo fan boy myself and i was exactly like this before, argue that italians are better, but only when i got the taste of it, i started to see the picture clearly)

BTW a perfect car eg: Pagani Zonda F (Oh my freaking God!!, but then this is my opinion, not a fact)

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Old 21st April 2007, 00:36   #64
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Originally Posted by 1Day View Post
i was looking for respect for the car where its due and not just nudged because of some mental block towards american tech.
I agree. I like this signature that this guy in one of the forums I vist has. It goes something like "I like Japanese and German cars...and the Corvette". So true. Corvette is something else. If you are buying a super duper luxo mobile, you complain about plasticky interiors. You buy a sports car for the raw performance. I think the Corvette caters to that kind of audience very well.
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Old 21st April 2007, 23:09   #65
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So much for high tech..

This is from 997 Turbo+Cayenne Turbo S+Boxster S owner and moderator/editor of rennteam

Quote:
Apparenly the VTG chargers produce so much heat, that Porsche wasn't actually ABLE to push the power figure above 480 HP without compromising the longtime reliability of the used technology. Keep in mind that Porsche tests their products under extreme conditions, so a tuned 997 Turbo may prove to be reliable even with high power figures...unless you drive it in the desert at +50°C temperatures.

Tuning the 997 Turbo is no easy job, this is one reason why some Tuners are actually exchanging the VTG chargers with "normal" chargers. I don't know if this is THE solution, some Tuners managed to squeeze out "reliable" 550 HP out of the VTG charger equipped engine without compromising safety. Unfortunately, most tuning kits sold in the past are not really reliable or even safe but owners would probably never experience something bad because they don't live in regions with high temperatures and/or they don't driv the car for a prolonged time at extreme speeds.

I don't know if Porsche did that by purpose to "limit" Tuners from getting excessive power figures out of the 997 Turbo but anyone who is interested in tuning his 997 Turbo should be aware of possible problems and consequences.

Right now, any power figure above 550 HP using the original VTG chargers, can be considered "unreliable" and "unsafe". Of course the people I talked to didn't give or allow me to provide details but if you consider to tune your engine and if you want to stay on the safe side and if you don't want to heavily mod your engine, stick with power figures below 550 HP or so. As a general "rule", increased power figures in the 10-15% range should be fine. Anythin above that...your risk.


1. Marketing gimmick in the first place, very likely also the beginning of a promising technology which isn't yet perfect.
2. VTG technology actually reduces the turbo lag, I don't know why people keep claiming something different. Driving a 996 Turbo back to back with a 997 Turbo may prove it. The VTG technology does NOT completely eliminate the lag though.
3. fuel consumption and future emissions regulations, I can't hide the feeling that VTG technology has strongly to do with that too.

Personally, I think that the VTG technology is a good start but I expected much more from Porsche, I have to admit that too. The 997 Turbo is a great sportscar and at least at par with the competition but there was a time when the 911 Turbo was AHEAD the competition and this is something I don't see right now. I don't understand why some people are trying to make the 997 Turbo look bad, it is an impressive car and probably "overkill" for most drivers. I can however understand the disappointment that Porsche didn't offer something more impressive, a real competition "killer".

The problem with the 997 Turbo is: people have options now. The F430, the Gallardo, even the Z06. Porsche is to blame for giving people these options and I don't think this was a good decision from a marketing point of view. Since Porsche seems to care mostly about money-making and VW right now, I don't expect too many spectacular products from them in the near future. The Panamera specs are already known (sorry, can't tell details but look at the Cayenne and you get a first glimpse ) and the upcoming GT2 won't offer any real surprises either.

My sportscar is still a Porsche and may be still a Porsche in the future. Our family cars however are a different story. Porsche has become too expensive and I don't see the reason to may a lot of cash for something I can get from Audi or other companies or less money. If Porsche continues this way, I may even reconsider my sportscar options and go for something else too. As much as I love Porsche but sometimes their model decisions are completely wrong in my opinion. Of course I'm a customer "only" and shareholders seem to be more important these days...


------

Customers are leaving first - shareholders will follow soon. Lack of USP = declining shareprice. I won't buy any Porsche stock, that is for sure..

------

Christian has already stated that there are no problems with mods if you live in the US (not directly, but he did ). The reliability "issue" is only an issue in Europe, where most of these cars are driven fast for prolonged periods of time. An occasional burst of full acceleration won´t ruin your engine, that´s for sure.

------

Porsche has been full of mediocre surprises and "innovations" lately.

I also think tuners are using regular turbos because they simply don't know how to tune the VTGs.

-Tom (05 GT3 Clubsport+03 Boxster S+04 M3 SMG2+05 CL55 AMG+06 M5+06 760Li+05 Ducati 749)
Just wanted to throw some light from point of view of ppl who actually own these cars and what they think about them..Its nothing bad but a reality check for most..

Last edited by 1Day : 21st April 2007 at 23:14.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 22:33   #66
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BTW Bro!! I finally got some time to do a little researching on your video and looki what i found

Crawford's Website with the performance figures no this car a month before the video you showed(so until Dr. Russ who is extremely well known is stupid to reduce his power levels further to 450, his levels were @ 550awhp = 690 Crank HP

How can you compare the 2 cars, i mean the car has all the advantages you could ever imagine(wide body, spoiler, running on race fuel, pushing 700hp with AWD an an extremely well known driver with crawford their to tune his car every lap if needed)..and then also it was only 2 seconds ahead when the guy driving the STi is working with crawford to prove their point whereas the Z06 driver was not their to prove anything for any tuner or car manufacturer..

Also that the C6z06 driver had only run 1/2(or less) sec faster than the fastest time set by the C5Z06(405hp @ crank) @ 1.29.xx which can only mean a serious driver on the C6Z06 would most definetly improve the 1.28.xx to somewhere in the 1.25-26.xx with appropriate tires and an indication that he had something to prove..

I can show another video where you see how crazy the suspension tunning is on this particular STi, it eats up the candy bars on the racetrack like it was strolling, if a stock suspension car(like the c6z06) were to try the same it would end up in the gravel the very first instance it tried s stunt like that..

So please when you get all agitated with "people like me" who probably dont know much, please think and apply some of the common sense before comparing..

I was comparing almost stock times and here you tried to show me the power of over worked up 2.x lt engines pushing 200hp more than the poor stoker..

Another video of the same car when it is pushing 650awhp = 812 @ crank

if you want i could do a little more researching for you on the Doc to show you how good he really is..

i am not taking anything away from this STi, it is super super quick, but if this heavily modded car was not then which car would be..so compare cars but do so by not going over the top with modifications..like i said earlier, i could build you an Aveo which would run circles around this STi, but then you are totaly missing the point of comparing cars this way..




So i am for sure putting my money where my mouth is..

Last edited by 1Day : 22nd April 2007 at 22:40.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 22:45   #67
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Originally Posted by tsxei View Post
I agree. I like this signature that this guy in one of the forums I vist has. It goes something like "I like Japanese and German cars...and the Corvette". So true. Corvette is something else. If you are buying a super duper luxo mobile, you complain about plasticky interiors. You buy a sports car for the raw performance. I think the Corvette caters to that kind of audience very well.
Yes you are right, but along with the Corvette i would put the viper and ford gt up there as well, even though the viper is lacking in comparison to the other 2 but its none the less an awesome machine..

Also gone are those days when Corvettes were mainly plastic, now the interiors are a lot nicer, i mean the only reason i never bought the C5s were because of their lack in quality, they have really improved on the C6s and i think the 2008 MY C6/C6Z06 will come with a 4LT option which everyone is speculating is the much nicer interior than the already improved interior..i am hoping for it too, but there are tuners who have redone the interiors for 10k to match any porsche around the block and improve the quality multiple folds..

so times are really changing with the whole american sports car scenes and no one can take then lightly which was my point to begin with when i started the heated discussion with anath..

Last edited by 1Day : 22nd April 2007 at 22:52.
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Old 23rd April 2007, 00:48   #68
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Another example of your high tech world from porsche. These worlds that i am posting are translated version of Von Saurma(i am sure you know him)

Quote:

Here are some samples:

"That's how it should work in theorie. In practice, the systems (PTM, suspension) do not function quite as harmonically as suggested by the theoretical perspective of the Porsche engineers."

"... suspension setup exhibits tumbling movements, switches between slight over and understeer..."

"... faster on HHR in softer suspension mode than in "sport"..." (BTW HHR is Hockenheim Ring)

"... feels strange in fast corners ... very demanding..."



-----------


Another quote from a Turbo owner:

IMHO problem is not that much in PASM setup, but in new AWD setup called PTM.
This SOTA system is responsible for this 997tt dance between understeer and oversteer...

And one other thing that I noticed-almost all 997 turbo owners are not driving their car more then 7/10. This is also the reason that most of them said that car is perfectly stable, very safe and easy to drive.

BUT, if you drive it more then 7/10(say 8/10 or 9/10) then you realize that 997 turbo is not very friendly and that car is actually pretty demanding and requires focused and experienced driver(again nice German word-Kenner!)...

This is the highest form of technology in front of you that porsche couldnt make the 997 Turbo any quicker than the 996 Turbo as tested by Sport Auto & Von Saurma. It was only 2 secs quciker while running cup tires than the 996 Turbo X73 on regular tires, all these years of "HIGH TECH Developement"

I have absolutely nothing against the Porsches, i love them too, to a certain extent but when people just look at the name porsche or ferrari or lambo and just assume its the best, thats where the problem begins..

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Old 23rd April 2007, 02:01   #69
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thanks for enlightening me and all the other guys like me who dont know better, but you talked price advantage and i showed you an example for price advantage. thats it.
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Old 9th May 2007, 17:01   #70
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some spy pics of the vette:









DigitalCorvettes.com - SS!- You saw it here! - REAL PICS!
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Old 9th May 2007, 20:31   #71
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Yup saw them yesterday, awesome haah!! saving weight is all that they care about, imagine a vette with less than 3000 lb and 150 extra horses, jeezz...

They are using polycarbonate for the hood and windows, seems like this will be the CS/Superleggera version of Z06..

Also the developement of the new SS has already trickled down to the new Z06 and the C6 with upgraded Steering feel and handling along with a new transmission for smoother shifts, i cant wait for this beast, there will not be a car like it in performance category period..until you are willing to send something like 700,000

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Old 9th May 2007, 21:43   #72
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WOW....MAN YOU GUYS WERE AT IT ....LOLLLLL!!! Mod's and rest of the guys did you just see that....i was drained simply reading this entire thread. Well done y'all. So all this argument i think should be continued in person and we all should meet up! Chi-town would be a good place and i'll talk about the meeting in the meet section. Sorry about this slightly off topic post mods
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