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Old 19th May 2007, 03:29   #16
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Originally Posted by ajitkommini View Post
Take a look at #106! wonder why it scored so low
Yes, The Punto is turning out to be a very unreliable car in UK and consumers are not very happy their cars.There are no engine related issues as such with the GP,but the electronics,gear boxes,suspension issues are the problematic areas.I did provide a few links in an earlier Punto thread.Good luck Fiat India Ltd.

Barring the Hondas and Toyotas, the other the jap manufacturer Suzuki is just not in the same league.Heck, the Swift is not even there on that list!

The Ford Fusion and Honda Jazz seem to be bloody reliable.
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Old 19th May 2007, 04:24   #17
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say a toyota goes 2 times and a Mercedes 3,but percentage wise Mercedes is 50% more trouble prone.also a mercedes is a premium car and its parts are imported hence it will naturally sit longer in the workshop than a toyota which are common cars.
I must admit, I know nothing about Mercs, Toyotas, or CR or JD Power. I do know that 3 is 50% more than 2, so I don't see what's wrong with that. Also I do know that if I've paid a bucketload of money for a car, it either
1. Bloody well not go bad quicker than a US$ 20,000 Toyota
2. Has no business to stay out of commission longer than a Toyota.

When you pay twice or thrice the value of a reliable car, isn't it logical to expect atleast the same level of reliability, if not a positive multiple thereof? It's not even like it's a freaking supercar that's being thrashed on track or has a super high-strung engine.
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Old 19th May 2007, 06:10   #18
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
I must admit, I know nothing about Mercs, Toyotas, or CR or JD Power. I do know that 3 is 50% more than 2, so I don't see what's wrong with that. Also I do know that if I've paid a bucketload of money for a car, it either
1. Bloody well not go bad quicker than a US$ 20,000 Toyota
2. Has no business to stay out of commission longer than a Toyota.

When you pay twice or thrice the value of a reliable car, isn't it logical to expect atleast the same level of reliability, if not a positive multiple thereof? It's not even like it's a freaking supercar that's being thrashed on track or has a super high-strung engine.
50% is not wrong,i never said it was wrong only thing is for small numbers % exaggerates the said value which is what these surveys exploit.

A car with 5000 parts is more likely to suffer problems than one with 1000,especially when most of those parts are electronics.when you inovate something you are going to suffer more than the ones "read comanies like toyota" who more often than not come and copy the improved product.

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Old 19th May 2007, 16:25   #19
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A car with 5000 parts is more likely to suffer problems than one with 1000,especially when most of those parts are electronics.when you inovate something you are going to suffer more than the ones "read comanies like toyota" who more often than not come and copy the improved product.
Let me give you two exampled:
1. Have you ever heard of Vtec failing on a Honda car anywhere?

2. Aeroplanes have many many more moving parts than cars. They operate in ultra-high stress, zero-tolerance environments. You cannot coast to the side when your engine breaks down. How come they don't fail and crash every week?

It comes down to manufacturing process and prowess. Something that, among automakers, the Japanese seem to be the best at.
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Old 19th May 2007, 16:43   #20
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
Let me give you two exampled:
1. Have you ever heard of Vtec failing on a Honda car anywhere?

2. Aeroplanes have many many more moving parts than cars. They operate in ultra-high stress, zero-tolerance environments. You cannot coast to the side when your engine breaks down. How come they don't fail and crash every week?

It comes down to manufacturing process and prowess. Something that, among automakers, the Japanese seem to be the best at.
now that is complete unreliable logic.how many Mercedes or BMW's do you see stranded on the side of the road or have exploding engines.a common Honda dosent have 1/10th of the electronic tech that is crammed into a Mercedes or a BMW,same for toyota.most Japanese car makers have cars that sit on the lower end of the market spectrum and hene have less electronics and are more reliable and easy to maintain.
now you can take Lexus,the largest selling lexus are ES and RX and both are based on toyota Camry and Harrier respectively(low-middle end cars in most of the world).the largest selling BMW 3 and Mercedes C are a class above,crammed with more tech than the average spec camry.

and mind u its the electronics(which mercedes etc dont manufacture) that fail the most and not mechanical parts.

secondly u are comparing apples to oranges,an airplane has different standards for operation,they are throughly checked before and after every flight and go into maintenance every month or so.do you know how many routine advisories reach the airlines from manufacturers regarding safety and part upgrades?

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Old 19th May 2007, 16:46   #21
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Yes I am well aware. Maybe MB or the like should send advisories to their customers and overhaul them every month. And like I said, when I pay that much money, I don't expect anything to fail. End of story.
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Old 19th May 2007, 17:03   #22
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
Yes I am well aware. Maybe MB or the like should send advisories to their customers and overhaul them every month. And like I said, when I pay that much money, I don't expect anything to fail. End of story.
Well then you need a RR. a 1930's model.

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Old 19th May 2007, 18:25   #23
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A car with 5000 parts is more likely to suffer problems than one with 1000,especially when most of those parts are electronics.when you inovate something you are going to suffer more than the ones "read comanies like toyota" who more often than not come and copy the improved product.[/quote]

First of all, all cars have nearly the same parts or around 20000. Second having more parts eg electronics that you suggest for MB are paid for the customer and manufacturers need to get them right or customers wont buy again. Third, who gave this idea that Toyota is a copier. Yes all are copiers, Toyota's production system has become so famous for efficiency and quality that many auto mags and management journals say that while Ford invented the assembly line and what Ford was to automotive manufacturing in the early 20th century, Toyota has been to manufacturing in the last 30 years. In fact, the copier has now become the copied with both MB and VW are now quoted as saying that their quality must come to Toyota levels for them to succeed in the next few decades. Fiat's Marchionne improved quality of Alfa Romeo in a `Lexus-like project' and Fiat changed its prodction system to Toyota.

There is so much of industry research available and it is not appropriate to make general comments without conducting due diligence. Customers demand quality even the rich ones and that accounts for the huge success of Toyota and Honda not only in the economy market but also in the luxury market. Should know that Lexus is now the most successful luxury car in the US, and MB and VW are universally panned not only by Consumer reports but by others of repute. In terms of brand value, Lexus is now valued more than MB by all brand valuing intl. orgs. In fact, MB has destroyed brand value, while Toyota and Lexus have enhanced it. Business press and trade journals have increasingly lamented the decline of MB and this you can verify at your leisure. Recently Fortune rated Toyota as the 2nd most admired company in the world and the 3rd most admired US company. The 1st is also a company that is reputed for quality-GE.

By the way, CR is an independent nonprofit organisation, which gets it right most of the time. Their recos count for a lot. Further, since you have used WhatCar/JD Power, you should know that while JD Power is much more diligent in Europe/UK than in India (with more rigorous surveys and higher sampling), it is Which? mag and not WhatCar that is relied upon in the UK. Since we have access to CR's 10-year reliability records for all cars presently sold in the US.
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Old 19th May 2007, 18:26   #24
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Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
Well then you need a RR. a 1930's model.
One does not need RR 1930s model when one can buy a 2007 Lexus today.
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Old 19th May 2007, 18:30   #25
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For whatever it is worth, CR’s survey for 2007 used cars show that these vehicles showed multiple year Used Car Verdicts that were much worse than average, according to survey respondents. They consistently had more problems than other models overall. Try to spot a Toyota here:

BMW 7 Series
BMW X5 (V8)
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Blazer
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet S-10 (4WD)
Chevrolet Venture
Chevrolet Uplander
Chrysler
Town & Country (AWD)
Dodge
Grand Caravan (AWD)
GMC Jimmy
GMC Sonoma (4WD)
GMC Safari
GMC Savana
Infiniti QX56 Jaguar S-Type
Jaguar X-Type
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Kia Sedona
(except ‘06)
Land Rover Discovery
Land Rover LR3
Lincoln Aviator
Lincoln Navigator
Mercedes-Benz CLK
Mercedes-Benz
M-Class (V8)
Mercedes-Benz
S-Class (V8)
Mercedes-Benz SL
Nissan Armada Nissan Titan
Oldsmobile Bravada
Oldsmobile Cutlass
Oldsmobile Silhouette
Pontiac Aztek
Pontiac Trans Sport
Pontiac Montana
Pontiac Montana SV6
Volkswagen Cabrio
Volkswagen Jetta
(turbo, gas)
Volkswagen Jetta (V6)
Volkswagen
New Beetle (4-cyl.)
Volkswagen Touareg
Volvo XC90 (6-cyl.)
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Old 19th May 2007, 19:01   #26
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In Nov 2005, in an interview with Automotive News (which is the auto industy's most authoritative news and data source), then Daimler-Chrysler Chairman-designate Dieter Zetsche said that Problems with complex vehicle electrical systems have been a key factor staining Mercedes' quality reputation in recent years. He said "Every-one understands on the Mercedes side, whatever can help us out, these things we better use. Pressure on Mercedes to use companywide resources is the only way for the luxury brand to improve quality at the same time it reduces its overall staff.
Before that Paul Halata, CEO of Mercedes-Benz USA LLC, said in an interview at the Frankfurt auto show in 2005 last week that Mercedes-Benz has corrected some problems that have eroded its reputation for quality.
Mercedes-Benz’s Eckhard Cordes has also been quoted as saying that although MB scores lower on JD Power, traditional Mercedes-Benz quality means having a well-appointed car, including the latest in electronic gadgetry and comfort items. Cars with those components tend to have more problems than bare-bones cars. Mercedes' quality was never about having the fewest things gone wrong. Wow! Competitor Lexus scores tops on JD Power well on the Power study. And if Hyundai can improve its score by learning how to take the test, maybe Mercedes-Benz should, too.
Cordes has said that `Our cars are still out there that are not on the level of quality that we want to provide the customer with."
I do not have access to recent JD Power data but MB scored last in J.D. Power Asia Pacific's survey of long-term (3 year vehicle) dependability in Japan for vehicles purchased during 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003. Toyota ranked first for dependability. Previous MB chief Hubbert has also said that they give close attention on JD Power’s ranking and new boss Cordes in 2004 said that Mercedes will accept lower profits in exchange for better quality. Mercedes will get more serious about poorly designed cupholders, problems with the trip computer and windshield wipers, and even brake dust.
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Old 19th May 2007, 19:07   #27
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Toyota being a copier. GM's Europe boss wants his operations to match Toyota's quality by 2007. DaimlerChrysler's Chief Operating Officer Tom LaSorda has the ambitious goal of matching Toyota quality by the end of 2007. He said that they are trying to match Toyota in initial quality while also improving durability in the three to five years of typical vehicle ownership.
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Old 19th May 2007, 19:07   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Quote:
A car with 5000 parts is more likely to suffer problems than one with 1000,especially when most of those parts are electronics.when you inovate something you are going to suffer more than the ones "read comanies like toyota" who more often than not come and copy the improved product.
First of all, all cars have nearly the same parts or around 20000. Second having more parts eg electronics that you suggest for MB are paid for the customer and manufacturers need to get them right or customers wont buy again. Third, who gave this idea that Toyota is a copier. Yes all are copiers, Toyota's production system has become so famous for efficiency and quality that many auto mags and management journals say that while Ford invented the assembly line and what Ford was to automotive manufacturing in the early 20th century, Toyota has been to manufacturing in the last 30 years. In fact, the copier has now become the copied with both MB and VW are now quoted as saying that their quality must come to Toyota levels for them to succeed in the next few decades. Fiat's Marchionne improved quality of Alfa Romeo in a `Lexus-like project' and Fiat changed its prodction system to Toyota.
First when i say 5000-1000 it was an example,i was not explicitly specifying the exact no of parts.
and your logic that all cars have 20000 parts is complete unfounded.So by your logic a Suzuki Alto and Mercedes S-class have same no of parts.Great theory.By the way from where did u get this nice round figure.

Secondly u are completely unaware of something called as innovation.As of 2007 which innovations have been made by Toyota in a Car.i only remember the 8 sp auto and parking guidance,eye monitor.Please enlighten us.

JIT is a refined model of the ford and dodge assembly line,its not a innovation in car technology,but manufacturing.

as for CR its a scandalous company.

ps:do a favour and put everything in one or two post

Last edited by merve_extreme : 19th May 2007 at 19:12.
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Old 19th May 2007, 19:50   #29
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This link from a scandalous mag may help in seeing where Toyota and MB score on innovation:

Fortune: Most Admired Companies: Snapshot

Apparently I always thought that sales figure are the biggest barometer of which have goit it right. Toyota's innovation is their production system which has lent the word lean and mean manufacturing, and which has now become a manufacturing byword. Really for most people in manufacturing and strategy, innovation means creative but that does not help if that cannot be produced at an acceptable quality and cost. More than that, innovation should bring profits and that means meeting customer needs and generating valuable products or services. Innovation is of no use if it sinks your company. Innovation must help a company grow.

There is no point in my saying anymore. Members should do their own research and form theiropinions.
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Old 19th May 2007, 20:14   #30
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please tell me the inovations not admiration ranks in some american based studies,that does not even list one inovation of the company and just gives it number 2 rank in inovations and what is with 2006 rank,the car was invented in 1885 so over 100 years what are the inovations of toyota.

hence i suggest u do the research and get back to us with the invoations in automotive technology of the truely great Toyota Motor corp and if there are none to be found than the ones mentioned by me then we can say companies like Toyota copy technology.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 19th May 2007 at 20:17.
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