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Old 21st June 2007, 12:20   #1
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Default Common rail diesel have the europeans/americans stung back

First and foremost the title was shortened due to space paucity and what I meant was European and american automobile manufacturers

Not so long ago the japanese where claiming technical superiority with respect to their engines namely petrol engines.They where more fuel efficient,quieter ,refined ,more fuel efficient than their counterparts from the other side of the world.But common rail engines seem to just have changed the equations.Just have a look at the ford common rail engine we have here,so also the swift diesel and now compare it with the only japanese diesel we have so far in the mass market the toyota innova and suddenly the balance seems to have changed so much so that actually these diesel's seem to be a better option than the japanese manufacturer's petrol engines[Kindly correct me if I am wrong].
To be fair to the japs they have not dished out their complete arsenal of diesel's in India but the technical superiority part of their engines is under some serious threat.

Here's a comparison

Ford Endeavour:
2.5 TDCi
143ps@3500rpm
330Nm@1800rpm



Toyota Innova:
2.5 D4D
102ps@3200rpm
200Nm@1400-3400 rpm

PS:
Even if you take the worldwide diesel engine's[common rail] from toyota they seem to be below par compared to the rest,the other japs will have to check up and will update the thread at a later time.
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Old 21st June 2007, 13:39   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahul_intlad View Post
First and foremost the title was shortened due to space paucity and what I meant was European and american automobile manufacturers

Not so long ago the japanese where claiming technical superiority with respect to their engines namely petrol engines.They where more fuel efficient,quieter ,refined ,more fuel efficient than their counterparts from the other side of the world.But common rail engines seem to just have changed the equations.Just have a look at the ford common rail engine we have here,so also the swift diesel and now compare it with the only japanese diesel we have so far in the mass market the toyota innova and suddenly the balance seems to have changed so much so that actually these diesel's seem to be a better option than the japanese manufacturer's petrol engines[Kindly correct me if I am wrong].
To be fair to the japs they have not dished out their complete arsenal of diesel's in India but the technical superiority part of their engines is under some serious threat.

Here's a comparison

Ford Endeavour:
2.5 TDCi
143ps@3500rpm
330Nm@1800rpm



Toyota Innova:
2.5 D4D
102ps@3200rpm
200Nm@1400-3400 rpm

PS:
Even if you take the worldwide diesel engine's[common rail] from toyota they seem to be below par compared to the rest,the other japs will have to check up and will update the thread at a later time.
Even i tend to agree with that...

Comparing a Swift DDiS with a Swift petrol, i'd go for the diesel.

However, its not the international M series engine here. So, not sure if the statement can be generalised.

Japs have not fully realised the potential of the common rail plants, i guess.
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Old 21st June 2007, 14:12   #3
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As CRDI is developed by Detroit Diesels a no jap company so thats for sure they will lead and Jap guys will take some time to match the figure.Even saw a Diesel engine from Honda in their site same using CRDI but still time is there to come out with same figures.
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Old 21st June 2007, 15:37   #4
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As CRDI is developed by Detroit Diesels a no jap company so thats for sure they will lead and Jap guys will take some time to match the figure.Even saw a Diesel engine from Honda in their site same using CRDI but still time is there to come out with same figures.
Currect me if I am wrong, I thought CRDi was the innovation of Bosch, Right? Pardon my ignorance....
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Old 21st June 2007, 16:10   #5
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Currect me if I am wrong, I thought CRDi was the innovation of Bosch, Right? Pardon my ignorance....
Fiat and Bosch collaboration.
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Old 21st June 2007, 16:21   #6
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Apart from Toyota & to some extent Nissan Japanese manufacturers were slow to catch onto the Diesel bandwagon which came up in the European markets. The leaders in diesel engines are still European car makers (for eg. see the engine in the 535d, a 3.0 litre twin-turbo with sequential turbos putting out 286bhp & 580nm of torque while revving to over 5000rpm )

The Americans have no presence in the diesel market apart from the big diesel engines in their full-size pickup trucks (like the 6.6 liter Duramax Diesel from Chevrolet for the Silverado 3500LT) and even Detroit Diesel which was one of the pioneers of the CRDi is now owned by Hyundai. The US govt. & especially the pain in the butt CARB have now made it even harder for Diesel engine passenger vehicles to be sold there with increased Emissions requirements. MB & BMW are currently in the process of engineering & selling vehicles there which are 50-state legal with the use of special particulate filters which are useful for the lifetime of the vehicle. But that requires the vehicles to be filled with ULSD (Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel) the availability of which is still patchy.

So in my opinion saying that US car makers have a edge here is completely wrong. As for the Ford engine you have mentioned above I'm pretty sure it was developed by either Ford Asia or Ford Europe. It was certainly not developed by Ford USA.

Leaders in the Diesel field today are companies like BMW, VW group, GM Europe, Ford Europe, PSA Group (Peugeot & Citreon) & Renault. And just for the record share of Diesel powered cars sold in Europe has now reached 48%! (IIRC) Though there are signs that their share might recede a bit now.

Last edited by iraghava : 21st June 2007 at 16:28.
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Old 21st June 2007, 18:01   #7
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I read an article by some European auto journalist in OD that diesels are on the way out in Europe and petrol engines are going to make a smashing comeback in the Euro zone thanks to some very hi tech units. FSI, TSI (VW group) and T-Jet (Fiat) are some of the brilliant petrol engines that they mentioned if I remember correctly.

But yes, European car makers have an edge over the Japs who have been slow in realising the market demand for diesels. But then Japs are more into hybrids compared to Euro, American and other Asian car makers.
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Old 21st June 2007, 18:10   #8
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Originally Posted by BUSA View Post
Fiat and Bosch collaboration.
Common rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This gives a wider picture of who developed it!... Detroit Diesel were the first to use it, but Fiat and Bosch (espcially Fiat) made the eletrical controlled injector for the same...

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
And just for the record share of Diesel powered cars sold in Europe has now reached 48%! (IIRC) Though there are signs that their share might recede a bit now.
I think the main reason for this is because of the stringent environmental norms in Europe (Diesel being a more cleaner fuel!)
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Old 21st June 2007, 18:31   #9
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Originally Posted by anToNIcHeN View Post
I think the main reason for this is because of the stringent environmental norms in Europe (Diesel being a more cleaner fuel!)
Not necessarily because all the Petrol engines there also adher to the same standards. Mainly the issue was that the Diesels were more fuel-efficient then their Petrol counterparts & hence the buying public liked them a lot but Petrols still sell more then Diesels overall, it's just that recently their market share has declined big time.

However, as Amit mentioned there seems to be a downward sales trend for diesels coming soon with the Petrol increasing their Power and FE with the latest technologies.
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Old 21st June 2007, 18:33   #10
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Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
Apart from Toyota & to some extent Nissan Japanese manufacturers were slow to catch onto the Diesel bandwagon which came up in the European markets. The leaders in diesel engines are still European car makers (for eg. see the engine in the 535d, a 3.0 litre twin-turbo with sequential turbos putting out 286bhp & 580nm of torque while revving to over 5000rpm )

The Americans have no presence in the diesel market apart from the big diesel engines in their full-size pickup trucks (like the 6.6 liter Duramax Diesel from Chevrolet for the Silverado 3500LT) and even Detroit Diesel which was one of the pioneers of the CRDi is now owned by Hyundai. The US govt. & especially the pain in the butt CARB have now made it even harder for Diesel engine passenger vehicles to be sold there with increased Emissions requirements. MB & BMW are currently in the process of engineering & selling vehicles there which are 50-state legal with the use of special particulate filters which are useful for the lifetime of the vehicle. But that requires the vehicles to be filled with ULSD (Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel) the availability of which is still patchy.

So in my opinion saying that US car makers have a edge here is completely wrong. As for the Ford engine you have mentioned above I'm pretty sure it was developed by either Ford Asia or Ford Europe. It was certainly not developed by Ford USA.

Leaders in the Diesel field today are companies like BMW, VW group, GM Europe, Ford Europe, PSA Group (Peugeot & Citreon) & Renault. And just for the record share of Diesel powered cars sold in Europe has now reached 48%! (IIRC) Though there are signs that their share might recede a bit now.

Hyundai owns detroit diesel ? Thats news
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Old 21st June 2007, 18:47   #11
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Hyundai owns detroit diesel ? Thats news
No no sorry my mistake! It's owned by DC but had done the latest gen engines for Hyundai too. I got confused there a bit.
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Old 6th July 2007, 01:27   #12
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For the american market even honda is talking about diesel,so also VW,mercedes,nissan and almost all the automobile manufacturers including mitsubishi but toyota seems to be standing out of the crowd.They are gambling big time on hybrids. So now we have a 100,000 lexus hybrid.Ford too seems to have taken a leaf out of toyota's books and is saying no diesel for america.

Is this gambling by toyota with regards to hybrids worthwhile,especially since for the moment atleast there does not seem to be any major advantage for the hybrids over diesel engines.
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Old 6th July 2007, 07:14   #13
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Honda pulled a major ace out of their sleeves with the 2.2 iCTDi debuted in the Accord in 2004 I believe.. Never underestimate Honda and their R&D prowess.

Their first ever diesel and they did this:
2.2 I-CDTI (2,204cc) 103kW (140PS) at 4,000rpm; 340Nm (250 lb ft)
torque at 2,000rpm; Euro IV compliant.
Check what they did to the FE
Honda Worldwide | May 6, 2004 "Honda Diesel Sets New World Records"

I guess we are to expect this from a company that got out 120bhp/liter out of a naturally aspirated car engine

I agree that the D4D that we get is detuned heavily for reliability, but the same engine available in other markets is tuned up to over 150bhp.


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Old 6th July 2007, 07:41   #14
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Is this gambling by toyota with regards to hybrids worthwhile,especially since for the moment atleast there does not seem to be any major advantage for the hybrids over diesel engines.
There are several advantages of hybrids. My friend has a Prius and when I was in US for a week in April, I had a chance to experience it. It is silent on low speeds, so silent that a small car like it has a reversing camera because nobody can hear the car (engine). Also, the mileage that you get with hybrids is way better than what diesel can offer. BTW, Prius has been selling like hot cakes in US market for quite some time.
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Old 6th July 2007, 09:14   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anToNIcHeN View Post
Common rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This gives a wider picture of who developed it!... Detroit Diesel were the first to use it, but Fiat and Bosch (espcially Fiat) made the eletrical controlled injector for the same...
Correct me if wrong.

But i have read that Common Rail Direct injection was developed by FIAT. And at a later stage, they sold the rights to Bosch (big mistake, i thought, after reading that)

EDIT: Also, am not a FIAT fan. Please dont attack me. Just mentioned what i have read to correct myself if wrong.
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