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Old 13th December 2007, 21:19   #136
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At such a proud moment, when an Indian has been elected as the top honcho at the largest financial institution in the world (USA based BTW), we are having our doubts on whether an Indian owned Jaguar would sell?!!!!!
Yup. And the fact that this largest financial institution is owned by the Saudis (Prince Al Waleed bin Talal, who also owns major stakes in Xerox, Kodak, Pepsi, Four Seasons, etc amongst others).

Who cares who the owners are? Do we have any idea who actually owns some of the largest carmakers in the world? Does that influence our decision.

I still am not in favour of the decision to buy these marquees, though.
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Old 13th December 2007, 23:09   #137
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This doesn't prove anything. The Orient Express has a fairly large number of hotels all over the world and maybe they didnt consider the Taj group established enough. I dont see anything wrong with that. While Taj does have hotels abroad I dont think theyre that big a deal abroad as they are in India.
It would have made sense if they said that Indian Hotels group isn't a top brand, but this is what they said
Quote:
"predominantly Indian" hospitality firm will erode our brand image"
Make your own conclusions.

Btw, TATA recently bought 11.5 percent stake in Orient Express.

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Who cares who the owners are? Do we have any idea who actually owns some of the largest carmakers in the world? Does that influence our decision.
If I am in the market for a $3000 economy car which can haul the whole family, then I don't care if it is made in Timbuktoo or Somalia. But if I am spending $100,000 on a car so that I can arrive in style at a club, then I may car about ownership.

All said and done, I root for TATA's in this deal. This would be a good move on TATA's part to acquire cutting edge technology and propel themselves in the world market. If not for anything, this deal would be to rub salt in british wounds. Their No#1 tea company and No#1 steel company have already been acquired by TATA and now their No#1 car company would be too.
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Old 14th December 2007, 03:47   #138
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Nope. AFAIK its owned by some chinese company now. Shanghai and Nanjing Automotive or something like that. They got the MG and Rover brands.
Incorrect Nanjing bought MG, Austin, Morris and Wolseley. The Rover brand had been licenced by BMW to the UK company, Phoenix Venture Holdings and was sold by BMW to Ford when MG Rover went under. As Ford had first right of refusal on the brand they became owners when they met BMW's asking price last year.

Rover is now the property of Land Rover. So if TATA get Land Rover they get Rover. Check with the UK trademark office if you still don't think I'm correct, but I'm 100% right!
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Old 14th December 2007, 06:57   #139
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It would have made sense if they said that Indian Hotels group isn't a top brand, but this is what they said

Make your own conclusions.

Btw, TATA recently bought 11.5 percent stake in Orient Express.

If I am in the market for a $3000 economy car which can haul the whole family, then I don't care if it is made in Timbuktoo or Somalia. But if I am spending $100,000 on a car so that I can arrive in style at a club, then I may car about ownership.

All said and done, I root for TATA's in this deal. This would be a good move on TATA's part to acquire cutting edge technology and propel themselves in the world market. If not for anything, this deal would be to rub salt in british wounds. Their No#1 tea company and No#1 steel company have already been acquired by TATA and now their No#1 car company would be too.
I think the fact that Orient Express declined doign business with the Taj group is pretty justified considering they arent that big outside India and are like they said a predominantly Indian hospitality firm.

I think most people will care more about the brandname than anytihng else while buying a car. Im sure more people dont even know who owns what company. What matters the most in the higher end of the market is the badge. Plus its not like Tata is going to fly the Indian flag at showrooms and shout out about the fact that they own the company.

Tata know that its next to impossible for them to launch a car internationally under the Tata motors brand, especially in the higher end of the market. This deal opens up a lot of foreign markets for Tata and will add a lot of depth to their product portfolio. Tata will be able to cover almost every segment between Tata, Jaguar and Land Rover.

Last edited by khanak : 14th December 2007 at 06:58.
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Old 14th December 2007, 07:17   #140
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Incorrect Nanjing bought MG, Austin, Morris and Wolseley. The Rover brand had been licenced by BMW to the UK company, Phoenix Venture Holdings and was sold by BMW to Ford when MG Rover went under. As Ford had first right of refusal on the brand they became owners when they met BMW's asking price last year.

Rover is now the property of Land Rover. So if TATA get Land Rover they get Rover. Check with the UK trademark office if you still don't think I'm correct, but I'm 100% right!
.....and thats why the Chinese call the reengineered Rover's "Roewe"
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Old 14th December 2007, 07:18   #141
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. Look at Aston Martin, arent they Kuwaiti owned now? .
Forgot to include TVR that is now Russian owned.
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Old 14th December 2007, 07:21   #142
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Forgot to include TVR that is now Russian owned.

Call that "was", the 24 yr ld kid ruined and forced company into liquidation
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Old 14th December 2007, 07:32   #143
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If not for anything, this deal would be to rub salt in british wounds. Their No#1 tea company and No#1 steel company have already been acquired by TATA and now their No#1 car company would be too.

If we want to "rub salt in british wounds" as you call it, there are less expensive ways of doing so - Tata would've over paid 20 billion dollars in total for these acquisitions.


What was the #1 British car maker again?
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Old 14th December 2007, 07:35   #144
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If we want to "rub salt in british wounds" as you call it, there are less expensive ways of doing so - Tata would've over paid 20 billion dollars in total for these acquisitions.


What was the #1 British car maker again?
Yea, this isnt about rubbing salt in their wounds or taking revenge, its just business.
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Old 14th December 2007, 12:25   #145
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But if I am spending $100,000 on a car so that I can arrive in style at a club, then I may car about ownership.
Most would care about the brand, not the ownership. But to each his own.
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Old 14th December 2007, 13:22   #146
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Interesting discussion here. A few members have expressed their doubts over Tata's takeover plans and the future of brand Jaguar. So what do we know:

1. Its just to expensive to make cars in Britain any more. Even design and R&D are moving house. Now, thats not to say that the quality of engineering is bad, on the contrary it is still world class. Looking ahead, an Indo-Anglo engineered Jaguar made in a factory in Pune (that used to churn out Mercs no less) doesnt sound that bad.

2. Tata has ample experience with overseas takeovers. Now if JLR will fit in strategically into the Tata umbrella, only time will tell.

3. Tata not only buys into JLR's engineering but also its vast dealer network, which is key in many untapped markets like US, where Jaguar is a more recognisable name than Tata (for now).

4. For the immediate future atleast, British unions will make sure that production stays in Britain and pensions are met. So it doesnt end with the takeover, expect huge VRS bills!!


Slightly OT but others members have doubts over 'Indian' ownership and management of premium brands. Let us look at the facts leaving aside the chest thumping nationalism. (lets be gracious, t-bhp is available to all on the world wide web)

1. If you asked Tetley tea drinkers in Britain about the ownership of the brand and what they thought of it, 90% wouldnt know that it was Indian owned or would not care to know.

2. Likewise for Whyte n Mckay/Delmore scotch whisky. Do you know that more than half of the scotch brands are in non-british hands?

3. Let us remember that Tata were small fish in the world steel market untill they bought a much much bigger Corus. This move has catapulted them into the top 10 steel makers. Theirs continues to be a happy marriage (atleast while the honeymoon lasts )

4. India just happens to be the 2nd largest foreign investor in UK after the US of A. Like it or not, Economics is here to stay.
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Old 14th December 2007, 13:23   #147
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If Tata's buy these brands, I'm surely going to buy one car from the range, as a salute to Mr. Ratan Tata!!
Whoever doesnt buy, because Tatas have taken over these companies, need to rethink whether Tatas will produce the cars or will they just be managers of the companies!!
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Old 14th December 2007, 15:05   #148
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Incorrect Nanjing bought MG, Austin, Morris and Wolseley. The Rover brand had been licenced by BMW to the UK company, Phoenix Venture Holdings and was sold by BMW to Ford when MG Rover went under. As Ford had first right of refusal on the brand they became owners when they met BMW's asking price last year.

Rover is now the property of Land Rover. So if TATA get Land Rover they get Rover. Check with the UK trademark office if you still don't think I'm correct, but I'm 100% right!
Well, well, you are right!

The picture really is confusing. One company buys the plant and machinery, another buys the brand and the third one buys the IPRs to the engineering drawings of Rover models.

Some more details available here:
China's Nanjing Automotive buys collapsed British automaker MG Rover - 07/23/05
BBC NEWS | Business | Rover brand name passes to Ford
BBC NEWS | Business | Rover sold to Nanjing Automobile


The clubbing of the Rover brand with JLR should make the deal doubly attractive to Tata. When Tata relaunch the Indica in UK (they've already declared their intention to do so), they can label it "Cityrover", for the sake of continuity. If sold cheap (Tata is quite capable of doing that), the car can sell in reasonable numbers. Tata always attributed the car's UK failure to the fact that Rover overpriced it. Its mid-trim model used to cost more than Skoda Fabia! Tata can also relaunch the higher end Rover models and market them with reasonable success, riding on the "Proud-to-be-British" appeal.

Last edited by directinjection : 14th December 2007 at 15:06.
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Old 14th December 2007, 15:05   #149
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Well latest i heard was that the deal wont be done by the 1st quarter of 2008.
One more point is will it be profitable for the company to continue producing the cars from the same units in UK rather than looking at options to source parts from the Production hubs like India?
Well there are parts supplied like bearings sound dampers so why dont they look at more such parts?
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Old 14th December 2007, 22:02   #150
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Yea, this isnt about rubbing salt in their wounds or taking revenge, its just business.

with some side benefits
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