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Old 15th December 2007, 01:31   #151
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I still am not in favour of the decision to buy these marquees, though.
I completely agree with Steer here and for the following reasons:

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2. Tata has ample experience with overseas takeovers. Now if JLR will fit in strategically into the Tata umbrella, only time will tell.
Problem is not managing takeovers but managing & reviving a nearly-dead Luxury car maker. Trust me, this is harder said then done especially given the condition that Jag & LR are in today. Why do you think there are only "3" bidders worldwide for these "prestigious" brands?? There's got to be a good reason for that & there is.

Both the brands are in real bad shape & IMO it would take a company much more experienced in this business of developing & selling luxury automobiles than both TATA & M&M combined. Remember, selling commuter & economy vehicles is one thing & selling high-end stuff is another.

Remember, if BMW & Ford could not make these companies profitable & run them, there's got to be a good reason behind it.

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3. Let us remember that Tata were small fish in the world steel market untill they bought a much much bigger Corus. This move has catapulted them into the top 10 steel makers. Theirs continues to be a happy marriage (atleast while the honeymoon lasts )
Yes, but they have years & years of being in the Steel market. And what experience do they have of the auto market?? Absolutely none if you compare their 20-odd years of existence to the rest of the big manufacturers. Even Hyundai is over 40 years old internationally now & has only now started to find a foothold in the global market & even that mainly only in the Economy & VFM market.

IMO both our companies don't have the expertise or experience to go into the international luxury market at this point of time. In all probability they are going to burn their finger, nay their hands badly at this venture.

Last edited by iraghava : 15th December 2007 at 01:33.
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Old 15th December 2007, 02:12   #152
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Problem is not managing takeovers but managing & reviving a nearly-dead Luxury car maker. Trust me, this is harder said then done especially given the condition that Jag & LR are in today.
...
...
Remember, if BMW & Ford could not make these companies profitable & run them, there's got to be a good reason behind it.
I am sure TATA is not trying to revive the Jag brand and make profits from it.
Here is a question:
How much time and money would it take TATA or M&M to build a 4.2 liter V8 that puts out 420 hp as against Ford or BMW?
How much time and money would it take TATA to derive a V6 from the same engine block? How much would it take BMW who already have equivalent engines.
How much time and effort does it take TATA to set up a worldwide dealership of the size Jaguar/LR has as against the time it takes BMW or ford?

The answer to first question is not much, and 2, 3 do not make sense for BMW but do for TATA. This alone, IMO, is enough for TATA to put down 1.5 billion on those brands.

If TATA trying to make profit by reviving the brands, then this deal doesn't make sense. But if TATA is trying to buy technology that takes several years to build on their own, then this deal makes perfect sense.
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Old 15th December 2007, 05:37   #153
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Although I am proud and at the same time cynical, my take is that:

Tata's will probably act more like an equity investor rather than full time hands on management which will be disastrous.

I would expect Land Rovers to come in to India in a big way and also Jags with Tata support for local assembly. Hope they are sensible on dealers.

Some R&D and prototyping execution might be done over here
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Old 16th December 2007, 12:26   #154
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All the doubting Thomases on this thread should perhaps read this:

newindpress on sunday - News Items
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Old 16th December 2007, 14:54   #155
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All the doubting Thomases on this thread should perhaps read this:

newindpress on sunday - News Items
Pot calling the kettle black
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Old 16th December 2007, 15:26   #156
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All the doubting Thomases on this thread should perhaps read this:

newindpress on sunday - News Items
Good story. On a similar not I know of an NRI who held a senior position. He went to India with one of his assisstants who was white. Those sent to pick them up from the airport treated the white chap as a god, offering to carry his suitcase etc whilst they ignored the indian. Even the white chap was embarrassed that his boss was being treated like that.

Anyway back to this story. The 2 so called luxury brands are white elephants. TATA will get more than they bargained for. The assembly line workers at these factories earn very good money for very little work. They will not change their working practices and TATA will end up wanting to get rid of the 2 brands.
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Old 16th December 2007, 16:44   #157
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Good story. On a similar not I know of an NRI who held a senior position. He went to India with one of his assisstants who was white. Those sent to pick them up from the airport treated the white chap as a god, offering to carry his suitcase etc whilst they ignored the indian. Even the white chap was embarrassed that his boss was being treated like that.

Anyway back to this story. The 2 so called luxury brands are white elephants. TATA will get more than they bargained for. The assembly line workers at these factories earn very good money for very little work. They will not change their working practices and TATA will end up wanting to get rid of the 2 brands.
They most certainly ARE white elephants and that is why their production lines will die slowly in the West. Even hardcore Brits will admit that the current production costs are unforgivable and totally unjustifiable.

For a trite example, take a look at the Rover UK takeover by SAIC from China. They uprooted the ENTIRE UK Midlands-based assembly line of Rover (75, MG and others) and moved it to China. Now SAIC is SELLING the modified (and mush improved) Rover in China where it will sell like hot cakes with the perceived 'pedigree'. They are even peddling the revised MG back to the Brits. Talk about reverse colonialism !

I am sure (that after 5 years) the headlines will (approvingly) mention that Tata has moved most of the production lines to cheaper countries (may NOT be India mind you!) and will probably make a profit out of it/correct thing to do etc.

The net losers are the Ford and the UK government actually which have both invested billions and billions of pounds or have extended tax sops respectively.

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Old 17th December 2007, 02:18   #158
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Not being funny but I'm sure that some of you have perhaps too much of an Indian perspective on this, and maybe not enough of a European angle?

You see let's deal with the White Elephant thing. Land Rover is not a white Elephant, study their sales figures and profits. They are up and have been going up for sometime. People in Europe see them as the most prestigious 4x4 brand in the world. We can't get enough. Which is why Land Rover is planning to add a SIXTH SUV to the line up! In fact they are the only Ford brand with positive sales growth in every key market!

Now let's deal with Jaguar. aguar is currently outselling Lexus in Europe and Jaguar was actually more sucessfull before Ford took over. They made a few Luxury cars for a lot of money. The Jaguar XJ was the class leader in terms of sales before Ford took over! So what went wrong? Ford improved reliabilty to match Lexus. Quality is up, but style went out the window and the engines weren't powerfull enough. People still love the brand but Ford made Jag make the wrong cars. It was a bit like trying to sell Ricshaws to the English. Have you seen an S type? And what were Ford thinking with the Ford Mondeo X type? But things are turning around at Jag. The new XK is a winner and the new XF is getting rave reviews. Jag is close to being fixed. They could be a hidden bargain! Ford undervalues them.

As for high Labour costs in the UK you are correct! But the problem is not in production of the cars, it's in the supply. No one in Britain cares where the parts come from, so long as production stays here.

Then there is the Rover brand. TATA need to be carefull here. Rover is a tarnished brand. On the one hand everyone knows and trusts it in Europe but some of the latter cars were seen as being a bit of an old mans cars. It was also a brand which Rover lover's were loyal too. But to fully exploit it TATA must make a Passat sized car and ideally use hybrid technology. A small car will be fine too but really the big car is a must. Some kind of exciting designs would be usefull. It is prefferable to use the Rover brand though. It takes at least 10 years to get established here otherwise.

If TATA get it right, they will access a very talented team of engineers at JLR who could help make TATA the next Ford. But they must treat JLR wth respect and not wheel out any old tat.

As for Indian ownership being a problem, forget it. When Rover engineers went to work with TATA on the CityRover they reported back to HQ that they got on well with the people there. They also said they preffered the people at TATA to the people at BMW! Indian investment in Britain and vica versa is strong because both counteries have some shared values and history. After all we both like curry and cricket don't we?

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I am sure (that after 5 years) the headlines will (approvingly) mention that Tata has moved most of the production lines to cheaper countries (may NOT be India mind you!) and will probably make a profit out of it/correct thing to do etc.

ItWasntMe
It won't pay to move the production lines abroad because volumes are too high. It will pay to move component manufacturing. The cost's of assembling cars are actually low. It's all the parts and shipping thats pricey. To be honest I have a bit of inside info on all this and can confirm that the plan is to increase production in the UK and expand the range so that all 3 UK plant's run at capacity. Once this is achieved they all become very profitable! Remember TATA are thinking big and also have plans for Rover!
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Old 17th December 2007, 07:30   #159
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style went out the window and the engines weren't powerfull enough.
I feel one of the reasons for that could be Aston Martin. AM is a more prestigious super car marque and if Jaguar ran wild with their engines, AM would be left trailing.
I agree, Ford did make Jaguar make the wrong cars. Jaguar were all about fast sports cars and big, fast, comfortable luxury saloons. That said, it was thoughts of the X-Type that gave BMW sleepless nights more than any other car. Luckily for them, it didn't take off. The S-Type started off as a Lincoln, but, later on got a Jaguar platform and became a really good buy. But, by then people had lost interest and the new 5 Series came along.
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Old 17th December 2007, 10:10   #160
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So it is almost certain that TATAs will drive away with Jaguar & Land Rover.

Tata set to drive away in Jaguar, Land Rover- Hindustan Times
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Old 17th December 2007, 12:28   #161
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Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
I completely agree with Steer here and for the following reasons:



Problem is not managing takeovers but managing & reviving a nearly-dead Luxury car maker. Trust me, this is harder said then done especially given the condition that Jag & LR are in today. Why do you think there are only "3" bidders worldwide for these "prestigious" brands?? There's got to be a good reason for that & there is.

Both the brands are in real bad shape & IMO it would take a company much more experienced in this business of developing & selling luxury automobiles than both TATA & M&M combined. Remember, selling commuter & economy vehicles is one thing & selling high-end stuff is another.

Remember, if BMW & Ford could not make these companies profitable & run them, there's got to be a good reason behind it.



Yes, but they have years & years of being in the Steel market. And what experience do they have of the auto market?? Absolutely none if you compare their 20-odd years of existence to the rest of the big manufacturers. Even Hyundai is over 40 years old internationally now & has only now started to find a foothold in the global market & even that mainly only in the Economy & VFM market.

IMO both our companies don't have the expertise or experience to go into the international luxury market at this point of time. In all probability they are going to burn their finger, nay their hands badly at this venture.
Ishan, Sorry to disagree! BUT, Telco has experience of automobiles from the days when they were partners[1950's] with Mercedes Benz in India.
They also have the 'attitude' for a luxury car thats required!
The reason why LR and JAG are in a mess, is because they were neglected[Margarat Thatcher nationailised Jag], and the the total Staff were living on Past glory, which Ford couldnt spend time and energy to work on and change. Like Corus, the trick is in utilising the resourses to the fullest to reduce costs and offer the cars at a much more competitive price--and they would sell. Also remember what is $2 billion for the benefits that can be derived[the India Shining Factor], and theres always got to be the first time! one experiments.[Im buying some shares of Tata Motors for sure with a 4 year horizon] if at all their excercise fails, they will still be able to sell of the Assets 5 years down the line at a higher realisation.
The Indian govt. is backing them too. and there are no plans to buy the companies just to bring them to India. In 3 years the cost cutting measures will show. All IMO.
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Old 17th December 2007, 13:23   #162
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Ford improved reliabilty to match Lexus.
Sorry and no offense - but found this line hilarious! ... because this is not a bad thing you know.
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Old 18th December 2007, 04:43   #163
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Default The FIAT Connection

Autocar - Fiat seeks new Jag-Alfa link

Here's where it all starts to make sense.
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Old 18th December 2007, 05:02   #164
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
All the doubting Thomases on this thread should perhaps read this:

newindpress on sunday - News Items
This guy is extremely biased and rascist towards Caucasian people IMO. Looks like he's living in the 70's.

Anyway, back to the topic, I think TATA are worthy contenders for Jaguar and Land Rover's management. I don't see why they should be considered inadequate.
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Old 18th December 2007, 23:26   #165
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Worthy or not,Jaguar is starting to look like a interesting deal for Tata with the latest XK and now the brilliant XF joining it.Land Rover,i'm not to sure where it is headed but could help Tata's own UV scene.The LRX is an interesting concept though.

The management will remain British,only the ownership will change.As long as the main management,design and engineering structure is left intact,Jaguar and LR will do well.Fiat may be backing Tata in this deal,there is a lot to benefit.

Its a tragedy that the country that once ruled India,will have two of its iconic brands owned by Indian's.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 18th December 2007 at 23:27.
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