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Old 23rd October 2007, 22:04   #1
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Default diesel type r ??????.

Honda is currently developing a new high-performance diesel engine for its Civic range, a new report finds. Outside of North America, the Civic is currently available with a 2.2L diesel engine with 140 horsepower. However, many of the Civic's rivals — such as the VW Golf, Renault Megane and Toyota Auris — offer more powerful diesels with about 170 horsepower. To combat the power discrepancy, Honda engineers are considering using the Accord's more powerful 2.2L CTDi engine in the Civic.

Honda's top powertrain engineer, Kenichi Nagahiro, told AutoCar that a diesel-powered Civic Type-R is a strong possibility. “As long as it is in keeping with the Type-R brand we will do it.” Nagahiro said. “High revving has to be part of it and that’s what we’re working on.”
Honda engineers are reportedly tuning the Civic Type-R's diesel to produce 180 horsepower and 315 ft-lb of torque.

Honda to produce diesel-powered Civic Type-R?
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Old 23rd October 2007, 22:19   #2
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Exactly what Honda should be doing.
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Old 23rd October 2007, 22:39   #3
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this is going to be interesting.. diesel type R, how r they going to make it rev so high ? somehow Diesel type R sounds a bit odd to me...
what do Honda Tbpians say abt this ?
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Old 23rd October 2007, 23:52   #4
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never really liked hondas high revving engines torqueless engines, waiting for it to hit 15,000 rpm and the vtec to kick in is quite a bore .
hope they give this diesel lots of low end torque.
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Old 24th October 2007, 00:02   #5
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Hmmm.... sacrilege in my book!! But let's see what they come up with. Might be interesting like BMW's 3L TT diesel engine!
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Old 24th October 2007, 00:07   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheap_deal View Post
never really liked hondas high revving engines torqueless engines, waiting for it to hit 15,000 rpm and the vtec to kick in is quite a bore .
hope they give this diesel lots of low end torque.
Thats exactly the reason Honda should be doing this. But then you will face a lot of criticism for speaking about lack of low-end torque on VTEC engines (including the iVTEC ones)
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Old 24th October 2007, 00:23   #7
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Originally Posted by cheap_deal View Post
never really liked hondas high revving engines torqueless engines, waiting for it to hit 15,000 rpm
Im assuming u are speaking about all Honda's in general
dude you are not a big fan of honda I think..
there is no torque becoz its using the low power cam profile, ignition and fuel maps for better mileage, u get 30 to 40 MPG in this zone.
Dont see may options in getting more power from a small engine for that price range ? turbo ? supercharger? higher CC ? but then it wont be in this price range and mileage

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Originally Posted by cheap_deal View Post
and the vtec to kick in is quite a bore .
some find it fun, anyways they are pretty good for 1.6,1.8 ltr capacity.
dont know what more performance is expected from a small 1.6-1.8 4 cylinder 4 seater sedan/coupe with 30-40 MPG ?
Can you list out cars with same specs which are more exciting ? I would really like to see a list of cars of same specs which are more interesting ?
I hope u are not comparing it with 350Z/Porsches/Evo/Sti etc ...

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Originally Posted by cheap_deal View Post
hope they give this diesel lots of low end torque.
you missed the point entirely, type R's are meant to rev high even in the article the Honda engineers are saying they will try to make it rev higher
.. so that means this Honda diesel may not be for you.

Last edited by chetanhanda : 24th October 2007 at 00:27.
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Old 24th October 2007, 00:29   #8
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Hmmm.... sacrilege in my book!! But let's see what they come up with.
same here iraghava... even I was surprised..
lets wait and see what these people upto since their intention is clear ...its got to be high revving.
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Old 24th October 2007, 00:42   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post

some find it fun, anyways they are pretty good for 1.6,1.8 ltr capacity.
dont know what more performance is expected from a small 1.6-1.8 4 cylinder 4 seater sedan/coupe with 30-40 MPG ?
Can you list out cars with same specs which are more exciting ? I would really like to see a list of cars of same specs which are more interesting ?
I hope u are not comparing it with 350Z/Porsches/Evo/Sti etc ...
.
The Type R does not sell in US of A, Civic Si does. Both of which is 2.0 iVTEC.

The Civic Type R is a car of the same Genre (selling on Racing Genes) as Evo and Sti, so why cant they be compared?

Golf GTi is a 2.0. Vauxhall Astra VXR is also a 2.0 so is a Fiesta ST. Some find them very entertaining.

Now the final nail, Suzuki Swift Sport is a 1.6!
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Old 24th October 2007, 01:00   #10
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Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
The Civic Type R is a car of the same Genre (selling on Racing Genes) as Evo and Sti, so why cant they be compared?
well they cant be compared for the simple reason as the basic fundamentals of the civic and evo/sti are completely different.while one is fwd,the others are awd.the civics are naturally aspirated while the others are turbocharged.the type-r's are all about overall balance(engine/chassis/suspension),fwd's dont get better than the type-r's.
and the power output of the civic and the evos are different.compare the evo/sti to a nsx type-r...then you are talking..
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Old 24th October 2007, 01:01   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
The Type R does not sell in US of A, Civic Si does. Both of which is 2.0 iVTEC.

The Civic Type R is a car of the same Genre (selling on Racing Genes) as Evo and Sti, so why cant they be compared?

Golf GTi is a 2.0. Vauxhall Astra VXR is also a 2.0 so is a Fiesta ST. Some find them very entertaining.

Now the final nail, Suzuki Swift Sport is a 1.6!
The 1st line of my post says this clearly:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
Im assuming u are speaking about all Honda's in general
becoz of this :
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheap_deal View Post
never really liked hondas high revving engines
he didnt say type R so Im assuming he is referring to all the civics also which is like a majority of Honda's tuner scene.

Last edited by chetanhanda : 24th October 2007 at 01:04.
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Old 24th October 2007, 01:25   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellspawn View Post
well they cant be compared for the simple reason as the basic fundamentals of the civic and evo/sti are completely different.while one is fwd,the others are awd.the civics are naturally aspirated while the others are turbocharged.the type-r's are all about overall balance(engine/chassis/suspension),fwd's dont get better than the type-r's.
and the power output of the civic and the evos are different.compare the evo/sti to a nsx type-r...then you are talking..
Agreed but they market it as having Racing Pedigree much the same breath as an Evo or Sti. Even if they are completely different in nature. However not connected to this discussion, whats stopping them from getting into that league.

However cars that are similar in nature to the Type R are below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post

Golf GTi is a 2.0. Vauxhall Astra VXR is also a 2.0 so is a Fiesta ST. Some find them very entertaining.

Now the final nail, Suzuki Swift Sport is a 1.6!


Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
he didnt say type R
He doesn't need to, as the thread is about Type R's. Not the Grocery-store-running Civics.

Last edited by 1100D : 24th October 2007 at 01:26.
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Old 24th October 2007, 01:31   #13
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Now Im assuming U are comparing only Civc Type R.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
The Type R does not sell in US of A, Civic Si does. Both of which is 2.0 iVTEC.
so ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
The Civic Type R is a car of the same Genre (selling on Racing Genes) as Evo and Sti, so why cant they be compared?
What crap .
Total crap... EVo and Sti are hardcore Rally machines, they are turbocharged with 300 BHP, they have 4 wheel drive and crazy traction control electronics etc, how can u even compare these monsters with a honda civic type R ? civic is outclassed by these monsters.
type R's are having NA engines with no turbo and definately less than 300 BHP. On top of that they are FWD they are on a diff level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Golf GTi is a 2.0. Vauxhall Astra VXR is also a 2.0 so is a Fiesta ST. Some find them very entertaining.
Golf GTi mark V is turbo charged.
Vauxhall Astra VXR is again turbo charged like the Golf

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Now the final nail, Suzuki Swift Sport is a 1.6!
haha final nail in the coffin definately
Dont compare a suzuki swift sport 1.6 with a civic type R, Im not going to waste time on this.Type R would be an overkill.

Last edited by chetanhanda : 24th October 2007 at 01:33.
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Old 24th October 2007, 01:34   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Agreed but they market it as having Racing Pedigree much the same breath as an Evo or Sti. Even if they are completely different in nature. However not connected to this discussion, whats stopping them from getting into that league.
I guess for some reason Honda does not believe in turbocharging their road engines to extract maximum performance. They believe in high-revving NA engines (ala BMW's M divison) to achieve their power objectives of course at the cost of low-end torque. But with their range of Type-R engines (barring the S2000's unit of course) they've shown that even with manic redlines & good top-end performance, their engines can still have good enough low-end so that they don't become cumbersome or frustating to drive in heavy traffic conditions.

Plus, apart from the Legend & CR-V they also do not seem to be keen on AWD. I guess the basic difference lies in the approach wherein Honda does not want to be associated with Rallying and wants to be associated more with Racing where NA engines are the norm rather than the blown mills of WRC and AWD/4WD is not used.

A lightweight, FWD car with a high-revving, NA, small-capacity engine and a good handling balance seems to be Honda's high-performance aka Type-R mantra.
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Old 24th October 2007, 01:48   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
there is no torque becoz its using the low power cam profile, ignition and fuel maps for better mileage, u get 30 to 40 MPG in this zone.
Dont see may options in getting more power from a small engine for that price range ? turbo ? supercharger? higher CC ? but then it wont be in this price range and mileage


some find it fun, anyways they are pretty good for 1.6,1.8 ltr capacity.
dont know what more performance is expected from a small 1.6-1.8 4 cylinder 4 seater sedan/coupe with 30-40 MPG ?
Can you list out cars with same specs which are more exciting ? I would really like to see a list of cars of same specs which are more interesting ?
I hope u are not comparing it with 350Z/Porsches/Evo/Sti etc ...


you missed the point entirely, type R's are meant to rev high even in the article the Honda engineers are saying they will try to make it rev higher
.. so that means this Honda diesel may not be for you.
Please read the above post very carefully. You would know where I am coming from.

Essentially to take away any misconceptions that its only a Honda Civic Type R thats delivering on these counts. Turbocharged, supercharged, AWD immaterial. If they are not doing it, thats their prerogative. Moreover it has always been that, Honda wanted to show that they have a minimalist approach with high efficiency but beyond a certain limit it doesn't work.

Now comparing a Type R or even an Si or even SiR with a WRX, or Evo seems very crappy at this end too. But I have seen some Ricer Boys and Tuners bragging on their H badges and thats even how these cars are marketed. Logically comparing these cars, in my REAL opinion is just baseless. But I still did it for keeping a record to show at a later stage when such comparisons WILL be brought. I know the discussions usually get there.

Now this thread makes no mistake about saying that Honda wants to introduce a Civic Type R in diesel.

The real history about Type R and the advent of the VTEC was to give essentially race prepped engines some on-traffic driveability. Which always meant real world driving was essentially compromised at all times, thats where the turbo-charged pack comes in providing almost everything. So I am not saying that the Type R is bad in itself, its just that the concept does not work very good in real world driving.

Last edited by 1100D : 24th October 2007 at 01:59.
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