Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP Worldwide > The International Automotive Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 17th March 2008, 10:51   #16
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jersey City, NJ
Posts: 52
Thanked: Once
Default

This is a no brainer segment - BMW followed by the Lexus, anything else falls far too short of even raising an interest (unless of course you are in for the three pointed star)
pow3r2dawh33ls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2008, 13:27   #17
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,732
Thanked: 89,255 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
Where,in India or the US?
My comment was based on feedback from Indian owners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
Want proof that older mercs are better? Here in kerala, the good old 123's are still favoured over the 210 series. Butt, the newer mercs are showing an increase in quality to their old lofty standards!
Totally agreed. The W210 was the worst Mercedes ever made, right up there in the hall of shame with the 1st generation M Class.

Buttttttttttttttttttttt the 210 has a back seat that is far more comfortable than the current gen W211. Believe it or not, some owners regretted their upgrade.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2008, 13:37   #18
HPP
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN/Hyderabad
Posts: 232
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
It will take more time than Mercedes had antipated, to make people believe that the good ol' Benz quality is back. In terms of material quality, yes....the new C and S are proof of Mercedes' renewed commitment. Sadly, the cars are still not reliable. The new S hasn't exactly been a trouble-free ride.
Correct, only because Land Rover/Range Rover has got even worse, did MB not take the honors of being the worst car brand on earth(reliability/cost of ownership wise).

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
I think the quality is back and people know it.The S-class has been the most trouble free new Benz since 1995.At least i have not read much about its troubles.There may be a few instances though.

It was ranked highest in JD Power IQS along with the A8.
Completely incorrect, they quality is worse then ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO - Touring View Post
Merve : JD Power accounts for dung when compared to actual ownership reviews. 17 actual S-Class owners (6 whom I know personally) have filled out our ownership reports and given it a below average rating on reliability. You really can't argue with the person who has paid 80 lakhs of his own hard earned cash for a car.

Problem areas within the air suspension, electronics, air-conditioner, horn etc. still remain. I do agree with you that Mercedes quality is on its way up, this shows in the New C, E and S Class.

Buttttttttttttttttttttttttt reliability is yet not a Mercedes forté. The newer complicated cars are a far cry from the simpler construction previous generations.
Spot on, other then they show no sign of getting better any time soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Of course, Mercedes-Benz has long been an innovator and a leader in engineering and safety. Most of their models still are great to drive and sit in-when they move. Daimler is claiming that their quality has improved. However, consumers here and in the US have long memories and it takes some time for reality (if it has changed) to catch up with perception built up over some years of `worse than average' (these are Consumer Reports' words) reliability.

Even owner satisfaction for Merc S class (as per CR) is at the median (73% would buy that car again) as compared with 88% for Lexus LS460, and 83% for Infiniti M35
Correct, and they are not better yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pow3r2dawh33ls View Post
This is a no brainer segment - BMW followed by the Lexus, anything else falls far too short of even raising an interest (unless of course you are in for the three pointed star)
While BMW is getting better, they are still not up to par. They do not have a long track record(relatively speaking.. last 15 - 20 years) of reliability and cost of ownership. The last one or two years specifically they have showed promise of getting better, but that isn't enough to give them the nod for being good. Never the less, they are still not even close to the top five auto makers(reliability/cost of ownership/owner satisfaction) so it doesn't really matter.
HPP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2008, 14:01   #19
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

Name:  cr042k8bestcars02.jpg
Views: 1322
Size:  44.7 KB

This is from CR April 2008 issue.
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2008, 14:07   #20
HPP
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN/Hyderabad
Posts: 232
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

It is amazing a company can produce such bad products and still get full respect from people.
HPP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 08:38   #21
BHPian
 
VIPER_SRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 432
Thanked: 171 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
By the way, CR is also a customer, since they claim to buy every car they test and rate (unlike most mags and arm chair critics). They bought a MB S550 in Mar 07 for $90200. According to them, the highs for MB S class is Acceleration, ride, handling, steering, interior room, seat comfort, fit and finish. Lows are controls, price, rocker window switches, reliability.
One of the Lows is "price"?? C'mon give me a break! you want a Merc for the price of a Ford or Maruti. You get what you pay for. I agree that controls were a bit complicated when I bought mine for first 2 months. I got used to it later. Just a test drive for half hour or an hour cant decide the fate of a car. I was passing by this thread and heard a lot of critics on Mercedes. I paid my hard earned money $62K for my E 350 4Matic (All wheel drive) in 2006. I've few problems like power head rest not working once. That was resolved immediately. Apart from that I never had any problem. well given the comments I should be the one to get a luck piece
VIPER_SRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 09:17   #22
HPP
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN/Hyderabad
Posts: 232
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIPER_SRT View Post
One of the Lows is "price"?? C'mon give me a break! you want a Merc for the price of a Ford or Maruti. You get what you pay for. I agree that controls were a bit complicated when I bought mine for first 2 months. I got used to it later. Just a test drive for half hour or an hour cant decide the fate of a car. I was passing by this thread and heard a lot of critics on Mercedes. I paid my hard earned money $62K for my E 350 4Matic (All wheel drive) in 2006. I've few problems like power head rest not working once. That was resolved immediately. Apart from that I never had any problem. well given the comments I should be the one to get a luck piece
Their reliability data is not from their personal car, it is from thousands and thousands of MB owners who fill out the forms yearly about their own cars. It is very comprehensive and takes all aspects into consideration. The positives and negatives are the words of the owners.

From personal experience owning a MB is a pain in the A$$. We knew we may need it, so we bought an extended warranty with the vehicle. While that is all fine that no extra $(other then the need to buy a $1900 extended warranty), the fact that we were at the dealer at least once a month was a pain in the butt. So much so that we got rid of it sooner then we have got rid of any other cars we have owned.

Keep driving your car and note how many times you go to the dealer. What I tell my friends who have bought European cars is this. You may like the dealership and how nicely they treat you, but when owning a Japanese car, you will never know what a dealership is like.. It usually ends the discussion right there.
HPP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 09:59   #23
BHPian
 
VIPER_SRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 432
Thanked: 171 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPP View Post
Their reliability data is not from their personal car, it is from thousands and thousands of MB owners who fill out the forms yearly about their own cars. It is very comprehensive and takes all aspects into consideration. The positives and negatives are the words of the owners.

From personal experience owning a MB is a pain in the A$$. We knew we may need it, so we bought an extended warranty with the vehicle. While that is all fine that no extra $(other then the need to buy a $1900 extended warranty), the fact that we were at the dealer at least once a month was a pain in the butt. So much so that we got rid of it sooner then we have got rid of any other cars we have owned.

Keep driving your car and note how many times you go to the dealer. What I tell my friends who have bought European cars is this. You may like the dealership and how nicely they treat you, but when owning a Japanese car, you will never know what a dealership is like.. It usually ends the discussion right there.

Well then Japanese car dealers dont have a service centers except to change oils; no spare parts in stock either except when the one meets an accident. We have a big family in US and we have owned right from 99 Honda Civic, 2000 Accord, 2001 Nissan Maxima, 2005 Honda Pilot, 2006 Acura TL, 2006 MB E350 4Matic and the coming BMW 335i which I've to take a delivery by April 2nd week (awaiting shipment from Germany). I've serviced all these cars, got rid of civic and accord. I've some or other problem with all the cars. Now listen, if you want to buy a reliable car which should not get any repairs or problems then I guess you should go for the Toyota/Lexus. If you like performance and luxury both and ready to compromise on repairs then go for europian cars. I bought my Merc in July 2006. I had visited the dealer once for 12000 miles service which requires the oil change and filter and regular filling of washer fluids. I've second service due now at 24k miles. I dont have any problems with my car as of now and even if i face anything, i'm ready to bear it for the sake of it. I like driving a Merc and its very tough for me to get used to Acura or Maxima which I own too. Ask any real owner of a europian can owner (esp Merc, BMW, Audi) and he would agree to it, once you drive them, you become an addict.

No offense but If someone's too creepy about repair costs then Toyota/Lexus or Honda is an answer for them
VIPER_SRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 10:33   #24
HPP
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN/Hyderabad
Posts: 232
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIPER_SRT View Post
Well then Japanese car dealers dont have a service centers except to change oils; no spare parts in stock either except when the one meets an accident. We have a big family in US and we have owned right from 99 Honda Civic, 2000 Accord, 2001 Nissan Maxima, 2005 Honda Pilot, 2006 Acura TL, 2006 MB E350 4Matic and the coming BMW 335i which I've to take a delivery by April 2nd week (awaiting shipment from Germany). I've serviced all these cars, got rid of civic and accord. I've some or other problem with all the cars. Now listen, if you want to buy a reliable car which should not get any repairs or problems then I guess you should go for the Toyota/Lexus. If you like performance and luxury both and ready to compromise on repairs then go for europian cars. I bought my Merc in July 2006. I had visited the dealer once for 12000 miles service which requires the oil change and filter and regular filling of washer fluids. I've second service due now at 24k miles. I dont have any problems with my car as of now and even if i face anything, i'm ready to bear it for the sake of it. I like driving a Merc and its very tough for me to get used to Acura or Maxima which I own too. Ask any real owner of a europian can owner (esp Merc, BMW, Audi) and he would agree to it, once you drive them, you become an addict.

No offense but If someone's too creepy about repair costs then Toyota/Lexus or Honda is an answer for them
Don't get me wrong, I love the way they drive, and like their style. I just will not spend my money on something that isn't made as well. I want to buy something that will not have problems(within reason). It's not about being scared of paying for repairs, it's about the fact that you shouldn't have to pay for repairs(or be inconvenienced by taking it to the dealer). I really like the drive of the Euro's, but I will not spend my hard earned money on them until they have the same reliability as Honda or Toyota. Until then, the Acura/Honda, Lexus/Toyota, and Subaru's will keep me happy.
HPP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 10:41   #25
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

I read in both team-bhp home page, on Consumer Reports, and numerous other websites about the extraordinary great service of MB. Of course, smiles and pampering are all good. But, what would you prefer: Smiling service people who make you so happy that you do not see your pants taken off. Or smiling people who make you happy, and you get to retain your pants and wallet in the bargain.
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 10:54   #26
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIPER_SRT View Post
Ask any real owner of a europian can owner (esp Merc, BMW, Audi) and he would agree to it, once you drive them, you become an addict.
Real owners means people who buy them?. Addict would mean they keep on buying their next fix (Merc, etc). Both would mean that they are not only happy but they would buy it again and recommend to others.

Then why is this the case that Lexus outsells Merc or that from its US debut in 1989, it took Lexus a little over a decade to cross 200,000 annual US sales, which it did in 2000. By comparison, Mercedes-Benz was roughly a century old when it broke 100,000 US sales for the first time in 1997.

Audi? Let me recall a piece of history for the Lexus.


The new US Lexus suffered its first recall in December 1989, only a couple of months after the first cars went on sale. The fact that the much hyped perfect car brand was forced to announce a recall made network news in Dec 1989. The problem was a cruise-control defect that could cause an accident by making it harder to stop; plus a centre high-mounted stop light that could overheat. The problems affected around 8300 Lexus LS400, all that had been sold till then.

Fortunately, Lexus acted on its then commitment and covenant. Which was that Lexus cars will be "the finest ever built." And "Lexus will treat each customer as we would a guest in our home." That translated into action and meant that Lexus division picked up the cars, replaced the appropriate parts, filled the cars to the brim with gas, washed them and took them back again, in a hurry. Completing the recall by typical methods (writing to customer, asking them to come to service) could have taken a year. By pulling out all stops, Lexus got most of the repairs done in a few weeks. Some customers lived hundreds of miles from the nearest dealership. In those cases, Lexus flew in technicians to do the work on the spot, including for one owner in Alaska.

Compare that with Audi. In 1987, Audi US had an unintended acceleration situation, mishandled it, and sales dropped 50%. Audi was rude and brusque in blaming driver error for accidents, saying drivers mistakenly stepped on the accelerator instead of the brakes. The backlash from Audi's initial reaction and a critical TV segment on "60 Minutes" nearly drove the brand out of the US.

James D. Power IV and Chris Denove wrote in their book Satisfaction: "We believe this recall marked the day that Lexus was truly born, and not the day it sold its first car. The recall was the day that Lexus showed the world what it really meant to be customer-focused. The recall became a case study in building customer good will. Instead of taking lemons and making lemonade, Lexus had done even better, taking lemons and making margaritas.
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 10:58   #27
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,732
Thanked: 89,255 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPP View Post
From personal experience owning a MB is a pain in the A$$. We knew we may need it, so we bought an extended warranty with the vehicle. While that is all fine that no extra $(other then the need to buy a $1900 extended warranty), the fact that we were at the dealer at least once a month was a pain in the butt. So much so that we got rid of it sooner then we have got rid of any other cars we have owned.
Good for you! Mercedes India does not offer extended warranties yet, though I hear this is to change soon. Especially since BMW India offers fantastic service packages for upto 5 years.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 11:09   #28
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

I am sure most of us are rightly enamoured of MB. It is still the choice for the well-heeled, status conscious buyers. But the difference between now and say the 1970s is that others have encroached upon the unique space that MB previously occupied on its own. MB has dropped the ball, even as others have made huge strides. Same story for the Big 3 (now the Detroit 3 or soon to be Detroit 2). What has caused it: product, competition, price/value, service, reliability.
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 11:19   #29
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,577
Thanked: 816 Times
Default

One thing that works in favour of BMW is sportiness in its models. MB being a bit softer has been overtaken by Lexus which has defined the new rules for luxury/comfort.
srishiva is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2008, 11:26   #30
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

Here is CR's free blog on Mercedes-Benz. After going through it, you are free to judge for yourself if CR is biased or not (I do not think so):

Mercedes-Benz: Consumer Reports Cars Blog

Bottomline for CR: MB is great for driving, their testers prefer MB, but still none of MB's models on sale in the US is `recommended' by CR. Perhaps this is best summarised in a blog entry for August 2, 2006:

A common accusation we hear is that cars often score highly in Consumer Reports because the test engineers here “like” them. Sometimes we have cars where the overall score doesn’t match our individual feelings, such as the Mercedes-Benz C230. The truth is that our overall score is a composite of many different individual test results. We run the tests, give the individual scores, and then calculate an overall score. In this way, every car is rated by the same system. There isn’t a “styling,” “cachet” or “got to have it” category in our scoring. As a result, sometimes that overall score corresponds to our individual likes and preferences. And sometimes it doesn’t.

For instance, the top-scoring sports sedan in the C-Class’s test group is the Lexus IS 250. It’s a very nice car that’s a strong contender in its class--but it lacks the steering feel that several of us desire in a sports sedan. Another example: Several CR auto engineers would buy a Nissan Murano instead of a Honda Pilot; they don't need the third-row seats of the Pilot and they prefer the Murano's sporty handling. Also, regarding pickup trucks, some of find that the longer bed and higher towing capacity of a Toyota Tundra makes more sense than the better-handling but smaller Honda Ridgeline.

Another example: one of our engineers drives the Dodge Viper every chance he gets. Don't be mistaken--the Viper's many shortcomings remain acknowledged, but it doesn't diminish his enjoyment of the car's burbling, spurting exhaust or its awesome power.

While in the end we give every vehicle an overall score, we also list the good and the bad about each vehicle. No doubt--high-scoring vehicles are definitely worthy of consideration. But the partnership we have with you is to give all the information so that you can do the research and make the best choice for your individual wants and needs.
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Morris Street : A Customised Street Rod, made in Delhi GTO The Indian Car Scene 26 22nd July 2012 18:46
The Line Journal (Linea 1.4 Emotion Pack) NutsNBolts Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 234 1st December 2010 14:18
Review: Mahindra Scorpio Pik-up Mhawk from USA by US journal sidindica Commercial Vehicles 15 14th November 2009 02:12
Wall street turmoil abhijitaparadh Shifting gears 18 1st October 2008 15:12


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 14:24.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks