Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP Worldwide > The International Automotive Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th March 2008, 13:05   #91
Senior - BHPian
 
merve_extreme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,360
Thanked: 12 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Apart from not knowing anything about cars or their manufacturers, after reading this, I have come to realise that I am perhaps getting info from the wrong source. I shall tell our company to cancel our subscription to CR, Ward, WSJ, Automotive News, Fortune, Industry Week, Harbour, etc; and immediately subscribe to Autocar UK, Car and Driver, Top Gear, and other similar shining examples of automotive knowledge and journalistic integrity and ethics.
Do me a favor and keep different arguments seperate.
You can subscribe to whatever you like,it's not like it bothers me in anyway.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 19th March 2008 at 13:08.
merve_extreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2008, 13:16   #92
HPP
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN/Hyderabad
Posts: 232
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
That is an assumption and is not true for all car manufacturers.A company like Mercedes will put maximum effort to make the next model reliable because their image gets affected, but a company like Suzuki or Dodge may not,they don't bother.You cannot generalize these things which CR has a poor habit of doing.
Talk about generalizing. It sounds like MB is the only car company that would take notice of building cars with issues and then try to make change. If that is the case, what has been happening from about 1990 till now? They just didn't care about that 15+ years? This whole notion is rubbish my friend. Building cars is a business(big business at that), I hope you really do not believe a manufacturer wouldn't take it in their best interest to fix issues they may have.

I have to give it to you, I have never met anyone as brainwashed by MB glory to be as protective of them as you are. That truly is a feat. I believe you believe these glorious things about MB and that is interesting.

And BTW, while not great, BMW is actually making good strides in fixing their quality issues, they are far beyond MB here in the US. Audi/VW, Saab, And Volvo however are still not doing well at all.

Last edited by HPP : 19th March 2008 at 13:17.
HPP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2008, 13:20   #93
Senior - BHPian
 
merve_extreme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,360
Thanked: 12 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPP View Post
Talk about generalizing. It sounds like MB is the only car company that would take notice of building cars with issues and then try to make change. If that is the case, what has been happening from about 1990 till now? They just didn't care about that 15+ years? This whole notion is rubbish my friend. Building cars is a business(big business at that), I hope you really do not believe a manufacturer would take it in their best interest to fix issues they may have.
I have never met someone who doesn't know what an EXAMPLE is.Truly stupendous.


Quote:
I have to give it to you, I have never met anyone as brainwashed by MB glory to be as protective of them as you are. That truly is a feat. I believe you believe these glorious things about MB and that is interesting.

And BTW, while not great, BMW is actually making good strides in fixing their quality issues, they are far beyond MB here in the US. Audi/VW, Saab, And Volvo however are still not doing well at all
What a way to blow an argument,brilliant.Talk something about justifying your statements rather than heaping lavish praises on me.just to let you know ,I'm flattered,Thank you.
merve_extreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2008, 13:32   #94
HPP
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN/Hyderabad
Posts: 232
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
I have never met someone who doesn't know what an EXAMPLE is.Truly stupendous.




What a way to blow an argument,brilliant.Talk something about justifying your statements rather than heaping lavish praises on me.just to let you know ,I'm flattered,Thank you.
What example are you looking for? The CR data? I think we've established that. My personal experience of many sorts? I think we've established that. The experience of others on this forum? I think we've established that. Data from sources posted by others? I think we've established that. If nothing in this thread has any merit to you, then there is no need speaking to you.

I do not need to justify my statements more then I already have in this thread. I am confident in my knowledge and need no acceptance from you. And I did not blow an argument, it was more of an eye rolling comment, rather then a true "lavish praise".. And I figured you would be flattered.

Not sure this thread has any more info that can be added(by either side), so unless something new/good is relayed. I think I'll sleep for the night(3am here).
HPP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2008, 13:36   #95
Senior - BHPian
 
merve_extreme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,360
Thanked: 12 Times
Default

Example that some car companies are different than others in dealing with things like reliability.Forget it you won't understand.

Have a good night.
merve_extreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2008, 20:36   #96
BHPian
 
VIPER_SRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 432
Thanked: 171 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Of course, every car is a depreciable asset but for me, a MB or a Lexus is unacceptable self indulgence (similarly my car Corolla may be self indulgence for a lot).

Perhaps I do not vouch for lots of people. But a lot of people are vouching for MB cars by buying a Lexus which is the best selling luxury car in the US. That is a fact.
Well you dont know that either! If some people like Lexus then will buy it, if not they will something else. A person who decides to go for a BMW will not think about Lexus or as a matter of fact MB. He would go for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Finally, I wish you would stop getting personal. We know that you have a MB and that puts you perhaps in the top percentile. That does not mean that others have lesser resources.
What do you expect! Buy a Mercedes and praise Lexus, inspite of me having no problems with my car. I guess you are getting personal by differentiating between higher and lesser resources. I never knew what car you had till now, but expected (rather guessed) Lexus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Final fact, media (reputed) is claiming that Daimler has changed its spots. Fine. But the proof will be in the pudding.
Hope everyone will be here on Team-bhp, We can have a fresh start after say "2 Yrs" from now
VIPER_SRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2008, 14:00   #97
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,706
Thanked: 89,039 Times
Default

Here is a simple question to you, Merve. When I pay a 30 grand premium price for an IBM branded PC versus 15 grand for an assembled PC, I should expect better durability, correct? Same is the case for most tangible purchases, be it an air-conditioner, factory machinery, or even a Raheja constructed apartment!

In short I should get what I pay for. My C has just gone in for the 40K service to Auto Hangar. They insist that the engine mounts have entirely worn out and need to be replaced. Now, my question is : I haven't owned any car that needed an engine mount change in 40K kms. Mercedes pricing obviously hints toward quality of car over quantity, correct? Why then am I not getting high quality components in my Mercedes....in this case, an engine mount which has worn out in only 2.5 years and (conservatively) 20% of the cars life?

I know of some W124 E250D's that have not required an engine mount change in over 1.5 lakh kms. And dont even get me started on the quality of electronics, air-conditioner components etc.!! A car is the sum of thousands of components, with the overall quality dependent on the quality of those individual parts. For the record, my C was built in Y2005, which supposedly was after Mercedes had made a turnaround! I will agree that I have had a far superior experience to that of the C180, but it is still not entirely up to the mark in reliability or in quality.

Last edited by GTO : 28th March 2008 at 14:07.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2008, 14:24   #98
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

I can see that you have a 2005 MB C200?. Perhaps as some people have claimed including Daimler the loudest, their quality has improved beyond recognition in recent months.

That means that the quality of previous years was not up to the usual MB standards.

Is it deja vu? In March 2005, then CEO Schremp said to WSJ that "The situation regarding Mercedes quality is not as dramatic as has been reported. What's coming out of the plants is the highest Mercedes quality ever' repeating a comment Mercedes chief Eckhard Cordes made before financial analysts in February. "Within the next 12 months we should see quite an improvement."

That was promptly followed by a recall of 1.3 million Mercedes-Benz cars world-wide. The recall which included cars that were made in March 2005 when Schremp was making that statement, was the largest ever by Mercedes in a single step.

Now, Daimler executives say that the luxury division's quality problems are largely under control. Promptly, as recently as 2008, MB USA recalled 9,004 diesel-powered vehicles from the 2007 model year because of crankshaft sensors that could fail. Failure would cause the vehicle to lose power and the ability to restart. The recall covers diesel-powered versions of the 2007 MercedesBenz E320, GL320, R320 and ML320. The company said it sold 12,580 vehicles with diesel engines in the US in 2007.
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2008, 14:39   #99
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

In a 2004 interview with Fortune, then BMW CEO Helmut Panke said that `All European premium brands still have to catch up with the leading Asian manufacturers. At first the Europeans said, 'Our customers are more discerning, so the expectations are higher, and we get lower scores in J.D. Power.' But when you look at it objectively, you can't overcome a lack of perceived and real quality, even if you have an authentic and emotionally appealing product." He said that the problems were due to eager engineers who stuff the latest technology in their high-end cars without thoroughly debugging it first.



Perhaps MB problems then were summarised by Jurgen Hubbert, then Member of the Board of Management of DaimlerChrysler AG and head of the Mercedes Car Group in Stuttgart. He said that `The market is less and less forgiving. People don't have to wait for Mercedes to sort itself out. They're going to buy a BMW or Lexus."
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2008, 14:55   #100
Senior - BHPian
 
merve_extreme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,360
Thanked: 12 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Here is a simple question to you, Merve. When I pay a 30 grand premium price for an IBM branded PC versus 15 grand for an assembled PC, I should expect better durability, correct? Same is the case for most tangible purchases, be it an air-conditioner, factory machinery, or even a Raheja constructed apartment!
See,here both IBM and the assembler uses the same components,IBM charges you 15K more for better assembly and Integration.Same goes for the builder.
An automobile is a completely different matter,the premium cars are much more complex than their cheaper counterparts.Mercedes would definitely manufacture a better Corolla than Toyota and charge you 50% more for the same.

Now separate from the matter,i will give you an example,The Mercedes S-class has radar based Parking sensors in Distronic equipped model.Now we know how radar works,there are bound to be unintended reflections from solid objects.Because of this the warning sensors sometimes go off like if there is a metal bar in you garage.People see this as a problem,but it is not,they don't bother to read their manuals.You can get away with that in a Toyota but not a Mercedes or a BMW.

Quote:
In short I should get what I pay for. My C has just gone in for the 40K service to Auto Hangar. They insist that the engine mounts have entirely worn out and need to be replaced. Now, my question is : I haven't owned any car that needed an engine mount change in 40K kms. Mercedes pricing obviously hints toward quality of car over quantity, correct? Why then am I not getting high quality components in my Mercedes....in this case, an engine mount which has worn out in only 2.5 years and (conservatively) 20% of the cars life?
Do you feel any unusual vibrations from the car or some strange sounds etc.If yes then there may be an issue otherwise i won't trust a Mercedes dealer.40K Kms is little to premature for them to wear out,most last about 80K Kms but some have been known to fail early.Bad quality or bad road conditions,I'm not aware.

Quote:
but it is still not entirely up to the mark in reliability or in quality.
Reliability yes,not 100% but they are improving at a great pace and are back from their worst in the late 90's and early 2000's.As for quality of the materials most articles i have read say that the quality is back to being among the best with the W221 S and W204 C (not my opinion as i haven't seen the interior).

Quote:
For the record, my C was built in Y2005, which supposedly was after Mercedes had made a turnaround! I will agree that I have had a far superior experience to that of the C180, but it is still not entirely up to the mark in reliability or in quality.
You can't expect a 100% turnaround with the same product as it cannot be completely reworked.The new C-class will give a better perspective where the turnaround stands.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 28th March 2008 at 15:05.
merve_extreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2008, 14:58   #101
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

In a 2004 article, Fortune noted that US has become the home of Mercedes' most vocally demanding customers. Like other luxury manufacturers, Mercedes sells the same car around the world. While international customers have similar expectations about how their cars should look and feel, they have quite different ones about what constitutes a defect. That, said Jurgen Hubbert, is the source of a split between the perceptions of American buyers about the quality of Mercedes cars and other customers. `It is hard to understand why we have these problems in the States, and we don't have them in other parts of the world’.
The downward perception about Mercedes quality are affecting the projected resale value of its cars. This is reflected in the residual value. This value is important because it affects new car pricing, but also the terms of a lease (important in the US). Over the last few years, the projected value of a used Mercedes in the US has slipped significantly.


The Automotive Lease Guide (www.alg.com) and Kelley are the leading sources of residual value. See this link to find out where all the brands stand in residual value rankings:



https://www.alg.com/press.aspx?pid=67
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2008, 15:56   #102
Senior - BHPian
 
merve_extreme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,360
Thanked: 12 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Now, Daimler executives say that the luxury division's quality problems are largely under control. Promptly, as recently as 2008, MB USA recalled 9,004 diesel-powered vehicles from the 2007 model year because of crankshaft sensors that could fail. Failure would cause the vehicle to lose power and the ability to restart. The recall covers diesel-powered versions of the 2007 MercedesBenz E320, GL320, R320 and ML320. The company said it sold 12,580 vehicles with diesel engines in the US in 2007.
looks like,there is trouble in Eden.
Lexus Recalls 29,000 LS460 SWB/LWB Drive Belt Pulley Flaw
Engine Pulley recall (merged threads) - Club Lexus Forums

I don't know how Lexus managed to keep that under wraps.Maybe because it relates to the LS.Lexus is no exception to problems like eveyone likes to believe.Just that they add a wash,full tank of fuel and no one complains.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 28th March 2008 at 15:58.
merve_extreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2008, 16:16   #103
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

As most would know, none of the manufacturer is immune from recalls. Lexus had a recall in 1989 within months of its launch. How it managed that has been posted. Go to NHTSA site and check which manufacturer has had no recall. None. While interested people are at it, also find out the instances, frequency, and the number.

Millions is a lot more than a thousands. 9000/12000 is a lot more proportion.

The quotes of Daimler's management is there. Next job is to pull out Toyota recalls and the sorry statements that their Chairman recently made about product quality. What is to be proved here?.

Write `car maker..." sucks on web and you will get sucks for nearly all car sold on the planet. The question is how much proportion of cars sold for that year were lemons.
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2008, 17:04   #104
Senior - BHPian
 
merve_extreme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,360
Thanked: 12 Times
Default

So how many lemons does Mercedes sell annually? 5,10,15% whats your reckoning?

If nothing is to be proved and everyone knows that there are recalls,then why do you persist with posting those old Mercedes recalls every time?

Last edited by merve_extreme : 28th March 2008 at 17:08.
merve_extreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2008, 17:14   #105
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
So how many lemons does Mercedes sell annually? 5,10,15% whats your reckoning?

If nothing is to be proved and everyone knows that there are recalls,then why do you persist with posting those old Mercedes recalls every time?
Old? This is 2008 data
Percentage? Do not know, but then 1.3 million must be some big percentage. MB sold 1.29 million in 2007, 1.25 million in 2006, and 1.22 million in 2005 (all figures incl. Smart). For the 2008 recall, it was 9004/12580.
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Morris Street : A Customised Street Rod, made in Delhi GTO The Indian Car Scene 26 22nd July 2012 18:46
The Line Journal (Linea 1.4 Emotion Pack) NutsNBolts Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 234 1st December 2010 14:18
Review: Mahindra Scorpio Pik-up Mhawk from USA by US journal sidindica Commercial Vehicles 15 14th November 2009 02:12
Wall street turmoil abhijitaparadh Shifting gears 18 1st October 2008 15:12


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 17:36.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks