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Old 28th April 2008, 10:42   #31
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Hopefully all these developments will result in properly designed TATA vehicles, with good ergonomics (what is that), good quality of materials and better engineering. It will enable Tata to close the gap with the auto manufacturers of the developed world and it the same time leverage on "frugal engineering" to develop cars that meet the growing expectations of the Indian/ international markets.
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Old 28th April 2008, 13:13   #32
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Originally Posted by SUV View Post
Also in the case of the 2.2, the design was bought and not necessarily developed from the ground up ... If you do some researc online you would realise that most of the developing countrie's have the 2.2 140BHP (+ or - 10%) 320Nm (again + or - 10 %) power outputs ..... For ex : Fiat Ulysses has similar output figure's... (might not be similar tech wise) ....

Something tells me MnM nd Tata bought this engine as a JV and depending on the investment made the power figures of each engie was arrived at ... ofcourse this is just my thought's ... will be great if we can have facts and figure's so that it gives a better understanding ....
I had always suspected that. Check my old post in the Mahindra Hawk thread:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tml#post645997

When two unrelated vehicle manufacturers almost simultaneously launch two engines in collaboration with the same engine consultant (AVL) with dimensions that are identical down to the last CC (2179), then it's got to be the same engine!

Who can give us more info about this tripartite engine deal? I find it interesting as well as intriguing.
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Old 28th April 2008, 13:30   #33
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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
I had always suspected that. Check my old post in the Mahindra Hawk thread:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tml#post645997

When two unrelated vehicle manufacturers almost simultaneously launch two engines in collaboration with the same engine consultant (AVL) with dimensions that are identical down to the last CC (2179), then it's got to be the same engine!

Who can give us more info about this tripartite engine deal? I find it interesting as well as intriguing.
Honda i-CTD also has 140 hp for 2.2 lts (the new i-DTEC is 150 hp, 350 Nm). I think it should be coincidence.
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Old 28th April 2008, 13:44   #34
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I am only rehashing what Mpower has already said and what you already know - The license raj did as much damage to Indian corporates as it did to the Indian consumers. Companies like Bharat Forge, Tata etc could not grow because of the protected market. They were stradled with limited products, huge labor etc.As soon as the markets were opened, these very companies streamlined their business and became innovative and profitable. So the aquisitions we are seeing now aren't being made with the money earned during closed markets, but it started in 2000 with Tata buying Tetley tea - The first biggest overseas purchase. The 10 years of economic liberation see the value of the companies go up many fold.
Very well said Mayavi!

Tata Motors wanted to manufacture Mercedes cars under license way back in 1960s but wasn't allowed to.

Forget Tata Motors, even Hindustan Motors wanted to introduce a newer and bigger car than the Ambassador (to be called Meghdoot) but wasn't allowed to, in spite of Birla's clout in GOI.

In 1986-1987, when Rajiv Gandhi used to talk about leading the country into the 21st century, Tata Motors sought GOI's permission to license-manufacture 40,000 Honda Accords every year but once again permission wasn't granted.

So let's not blame the poor manufacturers but the people who were actually responsible for the mess.

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I simply cannot understand how a company that made a Mercedes derived 1969 model truck for over 4 decades in truck and bus formats (remember we have no real BUSes - we only have bus bodies on truck chassis), and another that built WW2 jeeps in various shapes and forms with rags and pieces of plastic for passenger protection are now going around buying up some of the world's most well known brands.
Tata Motors at least took the trouble of setting up proper R&D facilities in the country and kept on improving the original Mercedes truck without any help from the collaborator. Unlike other Indian manufacturers of the era (HM, PAL, even M&M) it did not bring discarded second hand tooling from its collaborators to make discarded models under license. Way back in 1970s, even after the expiry of its technical collaboration with Benz in 1969, its trucks were exported across five continents and they found appreciative buyers all over in spite of the fact that they were branded as Tata, not Mercedes Benz. Heck, many truck buyers abroad preferred Tata to Mercedes!

Last edited by directinjection : 28th April 2008 at 13:57.
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Old 28th April 2008, 13:47   #35
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Honda i-CTD also has 140 hp for 2.2 lts (the new i-DTEC is 150 hp, 350 Nm). I think it should be coincidence.
What's the exact engine size in terms of CC? That'll give a clearer picture although I doubt Honda would like to be dependent on the likes of AVL.
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Old 28th April 2008, 13:57   #36
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Who can give us more info about this tripartite engine deal? I find it interesting as well as intriguing.
While the suspicions revolve around Peugeot / Renault, but there is talk about buying the fuel injection/management (Common Rail) unit from Bosch for a well-known engine and building/modifying an engine to suit those specs.

If the engine was bought, then they would have to give credit in some form to the original manufacturer. I suspect reverse-engineering here.
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Old 28th April 2008, 14:07   #37
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While the suspicions revolve around Peugeot / Renault, but there is talk about buying the fuel injection/management (Common Rail) unit from Bosch for a well-known engine and building/modifying an engine to suit those specs.
Bosch through MICO had been Tata's sole vendor for fuel injection pumps for over five decades. The fact that Tata chose Delphi for its cars caused considerable disappointment to Bosch which in its new aggressive mode is keen on getting back the lost ground. They've already got the Nano deal.

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If the engine was bought, then they would have to give credit in some form to the original manufacturer.
That needn't be the case always. You can pay the IPR holder a little more royalty for not having to give credit and to keep the collaborator's mouth shut through a non-diclosure clause in the contract! Maruti doesn't give credit to Fiat-GM for the 1.3 diesel either.

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I suspect reverse-engineering here.
Tata wouldn't like to spoil its name and reputation by reverse engineering someone else's product. The loss of goodwill from an infringement suit simply wouldn't justify the short term gain from copying. And Tata has a reputation for being scrupulous in spite of the few controversies that have arisen now and then. When they designed the Indica engine, Ratan Tata insisted that the engine be validated and certified by an international certifying agency (based in France). Unfortunately, international (or rather British) auto mags still labelled the engine as a reverse engineered Peugeot!

Last edited by directinjection : 28th April 2008 at 14:25.
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Old 29th April 2008, 00:25   #38
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Default TATA to take stake in Pininfarina

Ok, so this was the first news I read this morning. And a couple hours later I read about the motorcycle news and I thought allllrightttt I think its time to post this. Ratan Tata is on a rolll man!
here's the news link
Tata to take stake in Pininfarina - Autoblog

Quote:
Tata is looking to acquire a stake in Pininfarina, the iconic design house that's been under some [COLOR=#0066cc]financial distress in recent years[/COLOR]. Tata is aiming to take a minority holding in the firm, partnering up with the French industrial group, Bollore, with up to a 100-million euro capital increase. More details about the deal will be forthcoming in the next few months, but when Tata and Bollare take their stake, that will cut down the Pininfarina family's share from 55-percent to 30-percent. Here's hoping that Pininfarina's help will be enlisted for the second generation Nano.
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