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Old 27th May 2004, 20:11   #1
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Would you still talk about the E55 & M5 once you see this car? And know that it will have the Lamborghini Gallardo V10 in it! 4x4's on the house too

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Old 27th May 2004, 20:33   #2
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You know S-350, i hate to say this, but its now getting a little too mad.

Its good to have performance cars no doubt and yes performance sedans too. When the performance sedan market (read M5, M3, E55, C32, RS6, RS4) started, the concept was to give a car that was substantially more powerful yet practical. Today's ones though however are not very practical. Wanna know why? They are comfy, have alacantra and nappa leather, brush aluminium and all the comfy gadgets as well as a big boot. But thats where its practicality ends.

The current gen E55 AMG for instance does 6mpg when you are doin 155 mph. Now whats 6 mpg? 1 imperial gallon is roughly 4.5 litres. Assuming 1 mile at 1.6 kms, it means u get an average of just a shade above 2kmpl. Not very good i shud say, considering oil prices have sky rocketted in the last 3-4 years. The previous gen E-39M5 did a 20mpg overall which is a better 7kmpl. I dont think the new M5 wud however get to that figure. I fear it'll do just as worse as the E55.

The horsepower race has got really nasty. And honestly its not good news for us even though we have more power. You know why? Engines have now become so complicated that Electronic glitches have become so commonplace. Take the current gen 7 series which has become a rogue in the car world for too many electronic problems. Ditto with the current C and E class. And another piece of news to support it is the fact that the August launch of the M5 has been deferred to Jan. Why? You know the answer now.

Keep Revvin ™

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Old 27th May 2004, 21:17   #3
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You echo my thoughts Revv...The horsepower figures are just going on increasing, and the question is - HOW MUCH is enough? I can see half of you going "More is better" but the point is all about balance!!

The reason me and Revvmaster love the M3 and M5 to death is the sheer balance of the car...the finely tuned chassis, the amazing brakes, the relative simplicity of electronics (compared to new generations), perfectly matched gear ratios and having the power to control the car rather than vice-versa.

Power sedans in the past two years have been churning outrageous figures...someone at Team-BHP had posted on an S Class with 600bhp! C'mon, do you think that car will have the balance and reliability of a "regular" 400 bhp speed sedan?

Handling precision and overall balance is everything to me, and theres no such thing that the more power a car has, its necessarily more fun to drive too.

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Old 27th May 2004, 21:29   #4
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Hey S350,

She is a beauty, i almost overlook that huge grille in the front.
However, there is one thing i HATE about the old RS6.........no manual transmission!@
Whats the news on this baby? DSG?

cya
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Old 27th May 2004, 22:41   #5
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Well, these cars do a staggering 25+ MPG when driven like a luxury sedan. So the balance is there, if you think its just getting power and luxury and no economy. Now I may be talking from my own experience, coz I have sat in an E55 and it by no means while "driving smoothly" gives you an average of 6-7MPG. Its when you're going at 155MPH FULL THROTTLE DOWN right since you started, it gives you those figures.
And I also remember reading it somewhere that Audi is now planning to scrap their idea of having a Detuned Gallardo Engine in the RS6.
I may be wrong, I am not speaking through any thorough source, so please (guide me in the direction ) if I am wrong.

p.s. - Yea S350, any more info on the specs (and are they still going with the detuned gallardo engine in it?)
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Old 27th May 2004, 23:33   #6
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PS

Contrary to popular belief, these cars dont give very good averages. Sure, i've clearly mentioned it that the E55 does 6mpg when the car is nailed to 155mph. To clear ur doubts, the official quotes of the 4 performance sedans are as under

Audi RS6 - 19.3mpg(450 hp)
BMW M5 - 19.6mpg (400 hp)
Jaguar S-type R - 22.6mpg (395hp)
E55 AMG - 21.9mpg(476hp)

Now these are the averages that CAR Magazine received in their overall test of the 4 cars in December 2002:

M5 - 17mpg
RS6 - 15.8mpg
S-type R - 14.8mpg
E55 AMG - 13.9mpg

Note that these were achieved over roughly 200 miles of driving across Austria where the speed limits are strictly enforced. So even though the cars were doing ideal speeds in terms of achieving a good average, they didn't. Goes to show that what would happen if they get even more powerful.

Also remember, as cars have got more powerful in this segment, they've got heavier. The E55 for instance is a full 115 kgs heavier than the M5 and 160 kgs than the RS6. Even if they start using a few aluminium parts here and there and improve drag co-efficient of the cars they are still ending up heavier than their predecessors and not very fuel efficient.

Check out M5 board here M5 board and see who really purchases such cars. Most often than not its the primary car of several families. Sure they have more than 1 car, still i guess they do expect their cars to be fuel efficient as well as well balanced. Look at the E55 AMG for instance. I have gone through messageboards after messageboards of people complaining that the car wears out the brake pads ultra-fast even though they barely ever go fast. And i am not talking 10-15000 miles, i am talking less than 5000 too most of the times. Sure they are performance cars and parts are expected to wear out faster, but sorry, this fast?

Talking about ceramic brakes, the LATEST so-called breakthrough in performance cars. You know something, in a discussion with Ported-head i got to know that Porsche has deferred using them on the upcoming 997 Carrera. You know why? Ceramic brakes claim to have a life of around 100,000 + miles. And u know how much are they lasting during tests? Just 8000 miles. And you know why? Cuz these cars were taken over circuits for testing. And mind you, more than half of Porsche owners take their cars to circuits on weekends. In the western countries that is. And their current steel brakes last much longer inspite of the heavy use of their cars in circuits.

So are new gen cars getting really good? Look beyond BHP people. Sure its a part of our website's name, but it isnt everything. Sure we all want fast cars, but no one wants them to be too expensive to maintain. And that's a fact.

Keep Revvin ™
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Old 28th May 2004, 00:01   #7
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Thats some Piece of info, Revv.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] ]And their current steel brakes last much longer inspite of the heavy use of their cars in circuits.
I had no idea about it, thats brilliant..
Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] ]So are new gen cars getting really good? Look beyond BHP people. Sure its a part of our website's name, but it isnt everything. Sure we all want fast cars, but no one wants them to be too expensive to maintain. And that's a fact.
I dont completely agree with that.. But thats MHO!
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Old 28th May 2004, 02:49   #8
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Revvmaster,
I will again not agree with what you say lol,
*Snatches the pringles from revv*

Come on forget the mileage and drool over the car lol,
this is more like i post a hot chick and ur complainin abt her voice

No guys not enuf info yet but if u want i'll pm u the Audi board where we discuss this car,
Though ive not registered there yet,
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Old 28th May 2004, 03:30   #9
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Well *PS and S-350 i dont expect you to agree with me.

And S-350, u didnt even give me the pringles...so how come u already snatchin it.....

Revv

P.S. The audi messageboard is www.rs6.com



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Old 28th May 2004, 12:03   #10
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This car's great, but, as GTO and Revv have said, the "bhp race" has reached stupid proportions. In my opinion, approximately 400bhp and a 0-60 time of about 5 sec is enough for a sedan. Good handling or not, most of the time, you're not gonna use all that bhp and anyway, your speed is gonna be restricted to 155mph. I mean, come on, a Lamborghini Countach did 0-60 in about 5 secs.
The Germans are going nuts.
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Old 28th May 2004, 13:51   #11
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Well I'm a little late, sorry. but anyway, automotive egos are hard to satisfy. frankly i think npw it's gone to the point where it seems inane when a manufacturer scrams to shove a big engine under the hood, so that he can shave a couple of clicks off the competitors 0-60 mph time. V10s and V12s seem to be the choice way to go. i absolutely love the new M5, but i think it's at home on the race track. what it will end up doing is picking up groceries, and have the DSC kicking in everytime the car pulls out of the parking lot. 500 bhp!! that is insane. my favourite Porsches don't make that much power, and they still manage to lap the NS quicker! To a certain extent, it's all about making the customers guinea pigs. this is exactly what Porsche has done with their revolutionary PCCB system. and you know how much it takes to replace a worn out one? 27,000 pounds! yeah, you read it right, 27,000 pounds! which seems a little steep, considering that the PCCB system is a 6000 pound option.
the elctronics are getting complicated, which means even more problems. imagine yourself taking a turn at a 100 mph, which these V10d super sports saloon will do easily at the mere blip of the throttle, in the wet. you really don't bother about the traction and the grip, because some acronym or the other is constantly doing things for you. and then it dies on you, because it's raining. in all probability it's not been tested enough and the manufacturerrather have you do it. and you just did, and they will realise that it didn't work quite as well, after they pick up the pieces from along the armco barrier. or the opposite side of the road, oncoming traffic. mechanical reliability too is an issue. the new M5 supposedly revs to 8000 rpm. thats LeMans territory. and how high is it going to be revving when it's stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic in any city in the world.
These machines were practical till the glory days of the last gen M5, which was perfect when it comes to using one in everday life. the E55s, the RS6s, the M5s are just plain vulgar.
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Old 28th May 2004, 14:03   #12
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Humourous in parts...but very well-written P-Head. Am with you on this one.

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Old 28th May 2004, 17:02   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (ported_head @ May 28 2004,12:21)]you really don't bother about the traction and the grip, because some acronym or the other is constantly doing things for you.
LOL !!! great one!

I think that sadly the reasons these BHP wars are getting out of hand is because nowadays people judge cars by the figures put out by the manufactuers, its sad but true. I would more than happily pick a 5second saloon over a 3second one (if there ever was an option) if it had other positive attributes. The old E39 M5 was perfect you say? well i think that even that had JUST crossed the line by ever so little. The NVH of that car is a little on the extreme side...but hey..im not really complaining! lol.

Phead, 27k quid to replace a 6k quid option.... that would only leave me to believe that the "stock" brakes on the porsches cost 21k -labour. Thats insane.... is there any way you can find out how much it costs to replace the stock discs?

cya
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Old 28th May 2004, 18:13   #14
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Revv,
I throw pringles on the house here,
So lol it's always around me,
And im not saying I dont agree with you,
I know what you mean to say about the economy,
But Revv the previous generation E55 ( 210 ) also gave similar figures at mileage maybe just a .1 percent more,
And when it comes to practicality believe me man W211 E55 is as good as it gets at doing the best of both worlds, or may I suggest the S55

I know we're looking at it from different aspects,
But then too man tell me honestly if you keep the mileage figures and other figures off your mind, wouldnt you wanna shove in a bit in one of these cars?

And lol i want all of u to get back to that innocent RS6 which hasnt been spoken about at all here lol!

I'll create a new thread for discussin how much is enuf but hey on this thread just drool over the car!!

*SPANK* SPANK to all
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Old 28th May 2004, 22:35   #15
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Rehaan, i looked around the internet, these seemed to be the best around (approximate prices):
Brake discs: 100 Euros per disc
Brake pads: 85 Euros per axle

but still i couldn't find official Porsche prices around. ill try to look around more later.

Those replacement prices earlier seem high because they are for the PCCB system, and as any new technology is, it is expensive.
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