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Old 21st September 2007, 22:36   #1516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awini View Post
in the early nineties, i saw an amazing car with a graber body, in geneva,... only that the chassis was a late thirties dodge!!! how a good body can spark up a boring chassis.
learnt that day ,that the body is equally, and sometimes more important than the marque of the chassis its based on.
by the way, iv seen some really boring bodies on the likes of rolls ,daimler etc.
couldn't agree more. See what Ghia did to some of the makes. Made some outstanding yet others seem kitschy and tacky..too bling or as we say Jhatak
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Old 22nd September 2007, 16:48   #1517
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ID:353
What is this green coupe with the sunroof and the plexiglas covers on the faired-in headlamps? Doesn't the side strake on the front fender behind the front wheel arch, resemble Aston Martin's famous iconic design cue?



The red coupe on its left is a slightly different model. It is missing the body side spear extension from the side strake. It's also missing the passenger side door mirror (Desi jargon: O.R.V.M. -- Some desi gaDDi salesman's creativity!).
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Old 23rd September 2007, 11:34   #1518
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ID 353 closely resembles a nissan figaro.
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Old 23rd September 2007, 12:17   #1519
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ID 353 closely resembles a nissan figaro.
Actually @speedy, ID:353 is much bigger and sportier and more worthy of endurance rallies than the Nissan Figaro, which is more of a toy fun car.



Isn't the fun in the attempts and the conversations and discussions between us that follow? Do speak up friends.

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Old 23rd September 2007, 12:20   #1520
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looks like a mini Alpina!
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Old 23rd September 2007, 13:09   #1521
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looks like a mini Alpina!
Which Alpina are you mentioning?
The BMW Alpina looks very different.
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Old 23rd September 2007, 13:13   #1522
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the renault alpina. Not the aftermarket BMW tuner.
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Old 23rd September 2007, 16:02   #1523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
ID:353
What is this green coupe with the sunroof and the plexiglas covers on the faired-in headlamps? Doesn't the side strake on the front fender behind the front wheel arch, resemble Aston Martin's famous iconic design cue?



The red coupe on its left is a slightly different model. It is missing the body side spear extension from the side strake. It's also missing the passenger side door mirror (Desi jargon: O.R.V.M. -- Some desi gaDDi salesman's creativity!).
Ram
ID:353 is a late fifties (57-59) (Panhard) DB-HBR 5

A little information about this rare car made between 195-61 (approx 600 odd were made).
Before the world war, sports and race car builders, Deutsche and Bonnet (DB) were already making specials using Citroen running gear. After the war they continued to do so and in 1949 started to use Panhard mechanicals to build small, single seater Formula-3 racing cars but later on sports car s followed.. Db cars were fast and reliable and won major races like the Le Mans ans the Mille Miglia. Deutsch and Bonnet took to building this sports car with a twin cylinder air cooled Panhard engine. Initially it was 851cc/58bhp and later 954cc/70bhp. Their full names were dropped to avoid post war anti German feelings. Its called the DB HBR 5 based on the manufacturers number and the fact that it won almost every sports car race (H class) around the globe. The 1960 model was called the Super Rallye which had more trims and the more powerful engine.
In 1961 Bonnet wanted to change to using Renault engines whilst Deutsche preferred to remain with the Panhard engines resulting in thier split. The first time they met after the split was in 1962 at the Le Mans where one of the Deutsche made Panhard powered cars won the 701-850cc class and was 16th overall and the Bonnet made Renault engined car won the 851-1000 cc class coming 17th overall. Speaks volumes about these two engineers.

There was also a convertible of the DB-HBR 5 as seen in the Brochure below.



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Old 23rd September 2007, 16:43   #1524
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Wow! Nice one there Ram, had us all puzzled for a bit.

Here's ID 354:
What is this breathtakingly beautiful-looking coupe? I want Model, and year of manufacture.


Last edited by islero : 23rd September 2007 at 16:44.
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Old 23rd September 2007, 17:52   #1525
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Default ID:353; 1958 Deutsch et Bonnet HBR5 851 sports coupe. [1/2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
ID:353 is a late fifties (57-59) (Panhard) DB-HBR 5

A little information about this rare car made between 195-61 (approx 600 odd were made).
Before the world war, sports and race car builders, Deutsche and Bonnet (DB) were already making specials using Citroen running gear. After the war they continued to do so and in 1949 started to use Panhard mechanicals to build small, single seater Formula-3 racing cars but later on sports car s followed.. Db cars were fast and reliable and won major races like the Le Mans ans the Mille Miglia. Deutsch and Bonnet took to building this sports car with a twin cylinder air cooled Panhard engine. Initially it was 851cc/58bhp and later 954cc/70bhp. Their full names were dropped to avoid post war anti German feelings. Its called the DB HBR 5 based on the manufacturers number and the fact that it won almost every sports car race (H class) around the globe. The 1960 model was called the Super Rallye which had more trims and the more powerful engine.
In 1961 Bonnet wanted to change to using Renault engines whilst Deutsche preferred to remain with the Panhard engines resulting in thier split. The first time they met after the split was in 1962 at the Le Mans where one of the Deutsche made Panhard powered cars won the 701-850cc class and was 16th overall and the Bonnet made Renault engined car won the 851-1000 cc class coming 17th overall. Speaks volumes about these two engineers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by islero View Post
Wow! Nice one there Ram, had us all puzzled for a bit.
Well caught, Gogi! Didn't expect anything less from you.
ID:353 is indeed a 1958 Deutsch et Bonnet HBR5 851 sports coupe.



These cars were made at D&B's factory at Champigny-sur-Marne, a suburb of Paris 12.5 km southeast of the center of Paris.

About the unusual engine
It had a Panhard, all-aluminium "Dual Super" horizontally opposed, air cooled 851 cc flat-twin engine.
The engine had hydraulic tappets for silent operation and special dual ignition system (4 spark-plugs)
The engine breathed through a Zenith 38 NDIX carburettor and put out 56 bhp @ 5700 rpm.

An optional LeMans cylinders kit (class H modified), enhanced the displacement to 750 cc.
The 750 cc combo had two Zenith 38 NDIX carburettors, one per cylinder !

Here's a pic of the twin carb 750 cc Le Mans engine.



The engine was mounted longitudinally in front and drove the front wheels via Deutsch et Bonnet special U-joints.



The unusual engine had an unusual sound that led some people to think it was a two stroke.
Vibrations were smoothed by soft engine mounts, although this made the clutch difficult for an inexperienced driver to operate smoothly.
The engine normally operated at high rpm so all four gears were tall.

The engine's unusual dual purpose aircooling system
Air cooling was by a dual-purpose radial-flow turbine fan bolted to the crankshaft. A fully enveloping aluminium cooling shroud fed off this radial flow fan. Warm air exiting the cooling shroud could be directed, by cable-operated vanes, over the exhaust manifold to the car's cabin for heating and defrosting the windshield and cabin!


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Old 23rd September 2007, 17:55   #1526
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Default ID:353; 1958 Deutsch et Bonnet HBR5 851 sports coupe. [2/2]

About the unusual body and chassis
The body was of prestressed fibreglass and mounted on a central, large diameter, steel, torque tube chassis.



Performance
The combination of front-wheel-drive and forced air-cooling system assured unequalled cornering abilities, maximum reliability and easy maintenance. It could do 160 km/h and yet return 15 to 19 km/litre.

D&B won at:
  • 24 hours endurance race, Le Mans, France: 1954, 1955 and 1956
  • Mille Miglia, Italy: 1952,53,54,55,56 and 57
  • 12 hours endurance race, Sebring, Florida: 1952,53 and 1956
  • Tourist Trophy, Great Britain: 1954,55
  • Nassau International Races, Bahamas: 1957
Here is a French writeup http://dbrb.free.fr
DBRB stands for Deutsche et Bonnet, René Bonnet.

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Old 23rd September 2007, 23:06   #1527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islero View Post
Wow! Nice one there Ram, had us all puzzled for a bit.

Here's ID 354:
What is this breathtakingly beautiful-looking coupe? I want Model, and year of manufacture.

Grazie molto islero. Il vostro automobile era una prova vero dura in pieno sfida, Mamma mia!

ID:354 is the aluminium bodied
1954 Moretti 750 Gran Sport Berlinetta Coupé





This charming baby Gran Turismo was designed by the illustrious Giovanni Michelotti of Turin for Giovanni Moretti. Sig. Moretti made motorbikes and microcars. His company was called Fabbrica Automobili Moretti SpA, Turin.

(If you think that's one Giovanni too much, Giovanni Moretti was a great friend of Gianni Agnelli, grandson of Giovanni Agnelli who founded Fiat SpA. In fact Moretti used a lot of Fiat mechanicals. Karlos Fiatwale are you tuned in?)

Love the recessed door handles and one piece 15" alloy wheels that look like stamped-steel wheels to the untrained eye. Those are 4.25-15 tires.

It was also a very minimalist racing car. That meant Plexiglas windows, race bucket seats...



...and among the most spartan of spartan dashboards.



Don't miss the Fiat Millecento-esque switches and ignition keyswitch.

The 1954 Moretti 750 GS had a tiny
748 cc Bi-Albero (meaning twin-cam or DOHC) 4-cylinder engine.

The engine breathed through two Weber DCOE (Doppio Corpo Orizzontale ) carburetors (like what I dream for (Weber Double-body Horizontal-draught carb) on my Padmini S1).

It developed 75 bhp @ 8000 rpm, pushing the little car to 175 km/h.

But the car weighed only 495 kg. So you still got a racing power-to-weight ratio of 133+ bhp/ton -- a little sprightly car truly worthy of the Mille Miglia!

Here's a pic of the Moretti engine.



Don't miss the twin Weber DCOEs, the twin aluminium valve covers, the Magneti Marelli ignition coil and distributor turned by the left camshaft.

Ram
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Old 24th September 2007, 00:22   #1528
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Just a little more on the great Giovanni Moretti. Did you know that Giovanni Moretti started his own business when he was only 21 and that was when he built his first motorcycle. Before WW-II he had graduated to building three wheeled motorised delivery vans but when he re started after the war, that was when he started building sports cars. In contrast to other special car builders in Italy who extensively used Fiat and Lancia parts, Moretti made his own parts. He was not scared in building OH cams and his engines did make him world famous. By the 1960s, customers were more interested in factory built cars than hand built ones, however good they were and Moretti specialised in adapting car bodies and developing his own new ones. By the seventies, the Moretti firm appeared in the telephone directories merely as a car body specialist which work is still carried out till today. What a contrast to how the great Moretti had actually meant to have started. Just thought you guys would like to know this part of the irony.

Last edited by V-16 : 24th September 2007 at 00:23.
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Old 24th September 2007, 01:41   #1529
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ID:355 This should be easy for some of you.
What is this cute little red convertible.

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Old 24th September 2007, 06:42   #1530
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Correct answer V16!!!!! Great going!!!
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