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Old 9th February 2010, 15:21   #136
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Toyota is supposed to be everything in Japan. Its also a big dent on Japan and not just Toyota.
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Old 9th February 2010, 15:49   #137
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Did you'll read the paper (TOI) today? I believe that Toyota is preparing to recall a large number of Priuses. Something to do with a software glitch that governs the acceleration and de-acceleration of the car! I hadn't had the time to go through the whole article but this is quite disheartening to say the least!

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Old 9th February 2010, 19:34   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aargee View Post
IMO, most cars in US (not sure on EU) are automatic & this article talks about manual transmission, anyway, is it possible to shift to "N" when someone is in "D" gear at 70MPH in a AT car?

In a MT car, what would happen if the gears are shifted down from top to say 3 or 2 instead of simply applying the clutch when the brakes fail? Will that not slow down the car considerably?

most of the cars ( I don't know any that doesn't) have a low gear, often more than one, which locks the gear on lower gear and provides engine braking. my quest can be locked at 4th, 3rd and 2nd gears at will. I was also surprised why they didn't mention that as an option. but one drawback I see is if you lock it at a lower gear, it will provide higher torque thaqt can easily pull you thru a barricade into a ditch.

EDIT: to actually answer your question, yes you can shift it to neural anytime. then a jammed accelerator will redline the engine as mentioned in comments there. neutral and D are easily switchable, I always use it on signals. to go to lower gear or reverse you need to press an additional lever. to get out of park you also need to press brakes in addition to that lever.

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Old 9th February 2010, 20:45   #139
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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
What is the point here?

19 lives because they care for every human life in US. In India, multiples of 19 lives are taken every other day in road accidents, several of them probably due to manufacturing defects in cars. And, number of just Toyotas plying on US roads outnumber cars running on Indian roads.
How do the numbers justify a "life consuming defect".

Lets not compare road accidents with manufacturing defects here, we can start comparing lives lost in Africa due to tribal wars and starvation for that matter. Lets talk about proven manufacturing defects only.

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Unlike US, no one cares to carefully identify root cause in each case, forget about consolidating the data further and tracking it. Holding a manufacturer responsible for these defects and forcing recall is a far cry. Just look around on T-BHP. There are ample of stories about "lemons", which don't have just one or two but several defects together. Several of them can be indeed life threatening. Haven't you ever read about trucks/buses/cars going berserk due to brake failures?
Agreed, they go deep into the issue and work with the manufacturer to resolve this as also in Toyota's case, they forced Toyota for a total recall, it was not voluntary.

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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Though I am personally more biased towards European cars, I don't think comparing Tata and Toyota in the same breath means anything. If you have ever worked with a Japanese company, you would know how much quality conscious they are. It is not for nothing that "Made in Japan" is probably still one of the most sought-after tag on consumer goods.
We are just comparing two manufacturers, nothing wrong in it, they compete in the automobile world, right. I agree that japanese are very quality concious but its a profit making world in the end, I would have appreciated if after the first life consuming incident they would have voluntarily recalled, thats called ethical responsibility.

And there is no need to get sensitive about your Japanese employer / ex-employer, we are just discussing here
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Old 10th February 2010, 00:00   #140
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How do the numbers justify a "life consuming defect".
Lets not compare road accidents with manufacturing defects here, we can start comparing lives lost in Africa due to tribal wars and starvation for that matter. Lets talk about proven manufacturing defects only.
Do you even have data about how many accidents happen due to driver negligence and how many due to manufacturing defect? If not, why do you want to compare the two manufacturers? Tata doesn't sell in US and in India, we don't have data about manufacturing defects other than the reports we come across in magazines and T-BHP about "lemons".

Quote:
We are just comparing two manufacturers, nothing wrong in it, they compete in the automobile world, right. I agree that japanese are very quality concious but its a profit making world in the end, I would have appreciated if after the first life consuming incident they would have voluntarily recalled, thats called ethical responsibility.
Ethical responsibility? That's a joke in corporate world. Even the otherwise most respected business house in India, Tata Motors is not always ethical. (Tons of threads here).

If you want to compare two manufacturers, you can do it by all means. But at least have comprehensive tangible data on their quality control, other than report of 19 lives lost due to brake failure, before doing so.


Quote:
And there is no need to get sensitive about your Japanese employer / ex-employer, we are just discussing here
I am/was not employed even by a Japanese employer, so do not worry about being sensitive. But, I do know a bit about how Nissan works, have little insight into Toyota's way of doing things and certainly a bit about overall Japanese work culture. I also have several classmates, who have been working with Tata Motors for last 15 years (even before days of Indica v1) and I do know about how things were/are done.

Tata have improved tremendously over last 10 years, but comparing Tata quality with Toyota at this moment is nothing short of hilarious.

EDIT: Just realized that we are going off topic here. Sorry about that, Mods!

Last edited by RX135 : 10th February 2010 at 00:03.
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Old 10th February 2010, 09:43   #141
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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Toyota is supposed to be everything in Japan. Its also a big dent on Japan and not just Toyota.
Oh yes it definitely is a dent on Japanese pride. Toyota exemplifies (or should I say exemplified?) Japanese manufacturing excellence and it's TPS was lauded and emulated the world over.

See this: Japan gets an economic lesson from Toyota mess- International Business-News-The Economic Times

Cheers!
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Old 10th February 2010, 09:56   #142
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It is hard these days to be fan of Toyota (and to a lesser extent Honda). However, what looks alarming in newspapers and media may not actually be so. I have a Toyota and so far it has done more than I could. Regarding the media, I have a brother in UK and my wife has a sister in US. Their take:
1. UK: media is full of Toyota (negative), craving for British manufacturing (????). No one ponders why Britain virtually lost its car industry.
2. US (Washington): Same story as UK even though the reasons for all the coverage may be the same as in 1. My sister's wife had an Accord and only recently replaced it with a CRV.

However, this is a serious wake up call for Toyota. Even respected journals like Economist and Fortune (with no axe to grind) have raised concerns. Going by Toyota's history, I am pretty sure that more likely we will see Toyota pulling up their socks and do everything to work hard on regaining their reputation. That is what sells for Toyota. Remove that and they become any run of the mill car maker.

For me, Toyota is still the only one for a planned new car in 2011.

Last edited by vasudeva : 10th February 2010 at 10:08.
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Old 10th February 2010, 10:05   #143
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Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
For me, Toyota is still the only one for a planned new car in 2011.
That's a nice thought.

For me my next car just may not be a Toyota unless of course they get their act together. Though Indian models are not affected my confidence in the name has slipped. This is primarily because of the way they handled this recall where the focus was on engineering excuses and ignoring the complaint rather than listening to the customer. If they can treat customers in the US, their largest market, in such a shabby manner imagine the plight of us 3rd world customers! I've actually written a harsh email to TKM on this point.

Luckily for us TKM are very good in their customer relatioships and after sales.

Agreed that the component in question was from a 3rd party vendor, but the car has Toyota's name on it and they are responsible for every single part in the vehicle whether bought out or not.

Regards,
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Old 10th February 2010, 11:03   #144
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This seems to be a really bad stretch for the Japs. But if anything, I hope this failure makes them stronger. I've no doubt their QC team and their response in the future to any such problem will be dramatically better.
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Old 10th February 2010, 13:03   #145
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Default What WSJ says about Toyota

Delay in Response Led to Rift Between Toyota and U.S. Regulators - WSJ.com

Toyota apparently:

1. Did not accept the problem until it became fairly serious

2. Slow to respond once the problem was identified (WSJ says this is because the firm continues to be run from Japan instead of the US

What is however more surprising to me is that the regulators (NHTSA) actually work "cosily" with car makers and are often dependent on them. From the article "Car makers "are almost self-regulated," said an auto-industry chief executive who has worked with NHTSA. Without makers' help, there's "no way for NHTSA to look into all these issues."

Some of the accidents are heart wrenching. Whether Toyota deserves blame or not or whether the Western media is getting back at the Japanese who stole the march in manufacturing is opinion - but the fact is Toyota took more than seven years to act conclusively from the problem was first noticed.

Why could this have not been detected earlier?

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Old 10th February 2010, 13:08   #146
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Originally Posted by diffsoft View Post
Some of the accidents are heart wrenching. Whether Toyota deserves blame or not or whether the Western media is getting back at the Japanese who stole the march in manufacturing is opinion - but the fact is Toyota took more than 7 years to act conclusively from the problem was first noticed.

Why could this have not been detected earlier?
That could be normal for most but definitely not what is expected of Toyota based on their earlier days.

I am enclosing some articles on the recall process and its impacts on firm value (articles may be old but still relevant).
Attached Files
File Type: pdf RECALL PROCESS 2006.pdf (218.6 KB, 1055 views)
File Type: pdf Product Reliability and Firm Value 1992.pdf (303.9 KB, 442 views)

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Old 10th February 2010, 13:30   #147
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These 2 articles try to analyse what went wrong:

Motor World: Where Toyota went wrong - Feb. 1, 2010

The Toyota Recall and Cars' Electronic Innards - WSJ.com
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Old 10th February 2010, 16:26   #148
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Now HOnda is recalling half a million cars for airbag defects.
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Old 10th February 2010, 16:37   #149
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See this:

Toyota: The Company Everyone Wants to Sue - Tom's Guide

This quotes this:

Suing Toyota? Take a number and get in line | Reuters

if you are too lazy to click on the above, reuters has reported that San Diego law firm Steiner & Associates already has a website up and running (www.ustoyotalaw.com) that asks: "Have You or Loved One Been Injured or Killed in an Accident Due to A Defective Gas Pedal or Floor Mat? You may be entitled to substantial compensation!"


On its website, the national plaintiff lawyers trade group the American Association for Justice (www.justice.org) has a blurb that reads: "Coming soon... Toyota Sudden Acceleration Litigation Packet."


In essence, this will be the lawsuit version of "Plug and Play," where all plaintiff lawyers will need to do is enter names and data into a boilerplate lawsuit, lawyers say.

Last edited by vasudeva : 10th February 2010 at 16:38.
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Old 10th February 2010, 19:19   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aargee View Post

In a MT car, what would happen if the gears are shifted down from top to say 3 or 2 instead of simply applying the clutch when the brakes fail? Will that not slow down the car considerably?
If the speeds are too high, there might be some mechanism that prevents you from shifting to very low gears (like shifting to 2 at 200 kph). But mine is just a wild guess.

But yes, if you want to slow your car down, shift down to lower gears progressively (5 -> 4 -> 3 etc.). If the speed is too high and the revs in the lower gear go well beyond redline, you might blow the engine but this shouldn't matter when you are trying to save your life. I don't see how depressing the clutch pedal helps in the case of a brake failure. But yes, it will help in the case of a jammed accelerator pedal. You should also use the handbrake to try and slow the car down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
most of the cars ( I don't know any that doesn't) have a low gear, often more than one, which locks the gear on lower gear and provides engine braking. my quest can be locked at 4th, 3rd and 2nd gears at will. I was also surprised why they didn't mention that as an option. but one drawback I see is if you lock it at a lower gear, it will provide higher torque thaqt can easily pull you thru a barricade into a ditch.
In the case of a jammed throttle at wide open position, you are, due to kickdown, already in the lowest gear possible and the only positive of moving the gear lever down is that you won't move beyond the revlimit in that gear. Of course, if you are already traveling faster than that gear allows, the software (or hydraulics or whatever-ware) in most cars won't allow the transmission to downshift regardless of gear lever position.

Since the above is complicated, I think we should just shift to neutral. Shifting to a lower gear has no advantages over shifting to neutral and that is probably the reason they didn't mention it as an option. Of course, we should also jam the brakes and kill the engine if possible

I don't know if this has been posted already, but Car and Driver has a really nice article about how to deal with unintended acceleration
How To Deal With Unintended Acceleration - Tech Dept. - Auto Reviews - Car and Driver

Last edited by tacho : 10th February 2010 at 19:29.
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