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Old 1st February 2010, 20:39   #76
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Originally Posted by AbhiJ View Post
Question: If someone is at a high speed, and they downshift the A/t Transmission to 2nd Gear, and then 1st, wont the speed slow down to very survivable level?
An ECT wont allow you to downshift to 1 or 2 if you are over a particular speed. This is a safeguard to prevent damaging the gearbox. Only thing to do is stamp on the brakes and cut the ignition by switching the keys to ACC.

Such a runaway condition is easier to handle with a manual. Just press the clutch plus brakes and cut the ignition.

Doing all this requires presence of mind which may be easier said than done if you car suddenly begins to bolt. On crowded Indian roads a driver may have no time to react before the car hits someone or other vehicle.

Cheers!
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Old 1st February 2010, 20:40   #77
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By the way, for those who are wondering why the driver whose passenger made the 911 call did not manage to hit the brakes, put it in neutral or turn off the ignition, etc, here's some info.

Firstly, the car has the push button start that requires the non-intuitive process of holding the button down for three seconds for the engine to shut off. Its far more intuitive to jab at the button than hold it down.

Second, he was on the brakes but the system is designed to give only 1/10 of the normal brake boost when the engine is on full throttle. That's because brake boost works using a vacuum assist from the engine and it is programmed such that the brakes are not effective when the car is on full throttle.

I don't know why he couldn't shift to neutral but I'm pretty sure there was a good reason. This guy was a highway patrol officer, not some stupid bloke who can't figure out the difference between the throttle and brake.
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Old 1st February 2010, 20:40   #78
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The sticking accelerator issue has been reported since a couple of months now. IMPOSSIBLE that Toyota did not know about the occurrence / frequency of problem...in fact, they are the ones who would know about this issue first, thanks to customer reported complaints from their service centers.
Actually, rumours about "auto-accelerating" Toyotas have been doing rounds much earlier than Nov. 2009. Several incidents were reported on earlier cars as well (I do not exactly recall which year they started from, but certainly 2002-03 onwards).

Quite possibly, Toyota became a little bit complacent that, nothing could fall through crack with their much acclaimed Quality system.

In a loose software analogy, this is like a very rare bug, which can never be reproduced in-house and appears randomly only on customer machines without leaving any trace, and developers are convinced that, it is the end user goofing up.

Last edited by RX135 : 1st February 2010 at 20:42.
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Old 1st February 2010, 20:45   #79
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Well, the pads melting is per a report that I read. Pads will melt only when they contact the rotors properly and with sufficient pressure resulting in very high friction that drives them to melting point. Ineffective braking caused by less than normal brake assist etc wouldnt damage the pads. On the contrary I'd be concerned if the pads werent damaged.

You see, I own an Altis so my interest in this is rather personal. Have called TKM in Bangalore and did some investigations of my own with my car and reading on other Toyota forums in the US that I regularly visit. Have posted the link below.

Cheers!
But surely, standing on the brake for a short while cannot melt the pads no matter how great the speed. I believe its the brake boost failure that is more likely to be the cause. The car hadn't hit its top speed either so there was some braking going on which wouldn't be the case if the brakes had melted. Plus, there was a fire after the crash so perhaps that was the cause of the melted discs?

Anyway, please do be careful. I'm glad you've done your research (btw, you forgot to post the link) but still drive slowly (or better yet, use another car) and be safe until Toyota reveals exactly what went wrong. If your Altis is a manual, then that's a relief since you always have the clutch for extra help. Nonetheless, if you own another car, this is a great time to use it

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 1st February 2010 at 20:54.
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Old 1st February 2010, 21:10   #80
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
But surely, standing on the brake for a short while cannot melt the pads no matter how great the speed. I believe its the brake boost failure that is more likely to be the cause. The car hadn't hit its top speed either so there was some braking going on which wouldn't be the case if the brakes had melted. Plus, there was a fire after the crash so perhaps that was the cause of the melted discs?

Anyway, please do be careful. I'm glad you've done your research (btw, you forgot to post the link) but still drive slowly (or better yet, use another car) and be safe until Toyota reveals exactly what went wrong. If your Altis is a manual, then that's a relief since you always have the clutch for extra help. Nonetheless, if you own another car, this is a great time to use it
Actually the runaway car went on for several miles on the Fwy at speeds of 120 MPH i.e. 190 kmph. Trust me it will jack up your brake pads.

This is the link http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...models-us.html

where I posted a photo of the accelerator pedal in my car. Its made by Denso which corroborates TKM's stand that cars assembled or manufactured in India (and Japan i.e. the Camry) are not affected. Of course I encourage all Altis owners to check.

I am also reading reports that Peugeot has instituted a recall in Europe over the same problem. This tells me it is not a Toyota specific problem but a screwup at the vendor. Where Toyota screwed up BIGTIME is they tried to sweep it under the carpet till the US Govt forced their hand.

What I plan to do:

a) I am shaken by this huge lapse in quality and my confidence in Toyota has slipped. This is even though my car is ostensibly one of those not affected. People buy Toyotas for their quality not so much their performance and shape.
b) I will be careful whilst driving nevertheless
c) When it comes to changing my car, Honda will be back in contention though their cars have been recalled again due to a electrical part that can cause a fire.

We need to stop reacting emotionally. We all fly in aircraft for e.g. the Airbus A330 that crashed off the coast of Brazil due to a problem with the pitot tubes that led to faulty speed readings. In fact the A320 crashed during takeoff in the airshow back in 1988.

Guess what's common in both the cases...electrical and electronic failures and DBW or in the case of the Airbus 'fly by wire'. I work in the field of electronics and computers and I know how unreliable they can be.

Cheers!

Last edited by R2D2 : 1st February 2010 at 21:16. Reason: Corrected year
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Old 1st February 2010, 21:27   #81
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Originally Posted by Amartya View Post
Without meaning to sound rude, I have to say that your pointing us towards Toyota forums and saying that we are overreacting stinks!

Just in case you still do think so, read what the New York Times has to say about this.

Toyota Slow to See Scope of Problem Even After Fatal Crash - NYTimes.com

I concur with teamveevee completely, resale prices are bound to take a hit. When your reputation is built just on reliability, you cannot take any risks with quality, Toyota did so and needs to pay, and pay heavily.
No offense taken buddy. As for my attitude stinking, lets not sit in judgement shall we? It serves no purpose.

I didnt point you or anyone towards a Toyota forum but referred to what I have been reading there. I own the car in question after all and being neutral as I can be plus sharing what I know and have found out for the benefit of others. If what I post doesnt concur with your point of view please ignore it.

Thanks
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Old 1st February 2010, 21:28   #82
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Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post
In A/T vehicles too one can bring the gear lever to "N" while driging in order NOT to pass the Engine power to the wheels.

However if NO brakes working bringing down from 125 speed to stop takes huge distance of un interrupted run for the troubled vehicle.

Totyota, Honda's quality and premium tag is in big question now.
Quite a tragedy this one, may their souls rest in peace.

My .02

1. 125, here refers to the highway the car was on, not the speed.
2. If not downshift, the driver could have slotted to N (Should have worked).
3. Auto boxes will not always let someone downshift if above certain rpm.
4. For the LS350 to shutdown , he had to press the turnoff button for 3
Seconds, which the driver may not have been familiar with since it was a rental car (Expert opinion in the link posted as the source of this thread).


~S
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Old 1st February 2010, 22:19   #83
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Default Cashing in on Toyota's Misery

Toyota Recall 2010: Chrysler,Ford,Hyundai offer rebates

"Chrysler Group LLC has started offering $1000 to customers who trade their Toyota pickup or SUV vehicle and buy a Chrysler Jeep, Dodge or a Ram truck"
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Old 1st February 2010, 22:27   #84
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Looks like its not just Toyota but Peugeot, Citron and Honda that are going to have recalls for their pedals.

BBC News - Peugeot follows Toyota in car recall

Also read somewhere that the Mini uses the same pedal. This is not looking good for CTS.
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Old 1st February 2010, 22:40   #85
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Originally Posted by Samir Taheer View Post
Looks like its not just Toyota but Peugeot, Citron and Honda that are going to have recalls for their pedals.

BBC News - Peugeot follows Toyota in car recall

Also read somewhere that the Mini uses the same pedal. This is not looking good for CTS.
Precisely what I reported below. This is an issue with CTS' quality control and has affected other manufacturers.

CTS claim to have made the parts to Toyota's specs and design. Denso makes the same part (photo below in a previous post) and there have been no issues reported so far. Touch wood.

The difference is that the Denso part uses 4 torx screws in the assembly while the CTS part has a metal plate/cover on the left. Toyota MUST take responsibility for not having tested these parts thoroughly.

But worse still is trying to sweep these incidents under the carpet. My respect for this company has slipped a couple of notches.

Cheers!

Last edited by R2D2 : 1st February 2010 at 22:42.
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Old 1st February 2010, 23:21   #86
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Toyota MUST take responsibility for not having tested these parts thoroughly.
Exactly. Toyota ignored the complaints until the NHTSA forced them to stop production. That is the worst part...........Excepts from NY Times report posted earlier. a) Toyota did not make the recall voluntarily b) Toyota ignored the complaints even from its employees and tried to cover-up
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It was the tragedy that forced Toyota, which had received more than 2,000 complaints of unintended acceleration, to step up its own inquiry, after going through multiple government investigations since 2002. Yet only last week did the company finally appear to come to terms with the scope of the problem after expanding a series of recalls to cover millions of vehicles around the world, incalculable damage to its once-stellar reputation for quality and calls for Congressional hearings.
With prodding from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Toyota halted production and sales of eight models, including its top-selling Camry sedan.
And late last week, the government allowed the company to go ahead to try yet another new fix for its vehicles, which it is expected to announce on Monday.
At almost every step that led to its current predicament, Toyota underestimated the severity of the sudden-acceleration problem affecting its most popular cars. It went from discounting early reports of problems to overconfidently announcing diagnoses and insufficient fixes.
At the end of everything, Toyota will be a better car, quality will be better than before...Toyotas currently on road will not read the news papers and start auto-accelerating on freeways left and right, but when it comes to the next purchase decision, this will defenitely come back to customers mind. The feeling, after all, Toyota is also vulnerable...
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Old 2nd February 2010, 00:02   #87
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Precisely what I reported below. This is an issue with CTS' quality control and has affected other manufacturers.

CTS claim to have made the parts to Toyota's specs and design. Denso makes the same part (photo below in a previous post) and there have been no issues reported so far. Touch wood.

The difference is that the Denso part uses 4 torx screws in the assembly while the CTS part has a metal plate/cover on the left. Toyota MUST take responsibility for not having tested these parts thoroughly.

But worse still is trying to sweep these incidents under the carpet. My respect for this company has slipped a couple of notches.

Cheers!
I agree with what you say about there being an issue with CTS's quality control, but its a bit difficult for an OEM to test all the components that go onto their cars.

Its going to be interesting to see where this goes with CTS, because Toyota and the other OEM's will only pass all these costs of recalls straight onto them, if they don't have recall insurance, its probably going to be the end of them.

As for sweeping it under the carpet, well your respect for alot of companies would have to slip a few notches. The company i work for, makes components for alot of OEM's and in the past we have had suspect materials (critical suspension parts) which have still gone onto vehicles. We were hit with a bill (which we passed onto our suppliers) but the OEM never had a recall and were waiting for an issue to pop up before dealing with it. Luckily nothings happened yet. I've known this to happen with alot of automotive manufactures. Its not unusual for companies to do this.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 09:12   #88
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Originally Posted by Samir Taheer View Post
I agree with what you say about there being an issue with CTS's quality control, but its a bit difficult for an OEM to test all the components that go onto their cars.

We were hit with a bill (which we passed onto our suppliers) but the OEM never had a recall and were waiting for an issue to pop up before dealing with it. Luckily nothings happened yet. I've known this to happen with alot of automotive manufactures. Its not unusual for companies to do this.
Wow man. This is a revelation. Car mfrs will do anything to save money. So then why blame Toyota alone if such a trend is widespread. From my point of view even if CTS screwed up, in the eyes of the customer it remains Toyota's responsibility.

Of course a cover up will work only till such time the fault is not discovered and reported as it was in the case of Toyota.

Cheers!

Last edited by R2D2 : 2nd February 2010 at 09:14.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 12:13   #89
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Exclamation Lets Get TECHNICAL

Lets Get TECHNICAL

-----------------------------------

Toyota announces gas pedal fix - Feb. 1, 2010

Toyota announces gas pedal fix




NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) --

Toyota said Monday it has developed a fix for gas pedals in millions of recalled vehicles and is already shipping the new parts to dealers.

The fix involves reinforcing the pedal assembly in a way that eliminates the excess friction that has caused the pedals to stick, the company said in a press release. Toyota recalled 2.3 million vehicles in the United States for this problem.

Toyota said replacement parts are already being shipped and that dealers will work extended hours to fix the recalled vehicles.

"We know what's causing the sticking accelerator pedals, and we know what we have to do to fix it," said Jim Lentz, Toyota's president and chief operating officer, in a statement.

Toyota will begin contacting customers as early as this week to let them know when to bring in their vehicles for the fix. The automaker said it will cover all costs related to the fix, which will take about 30 minutes.
It's not clear how long it will take to fix all 2.3 million cars, Lentz told CNNMoney.com. Much will depend on how quickly customers bring their cars into dealers for repairs.

Customers will begin receiving notices late this week and dealers will start doing repairs this weekend, Lentz said in a conference call.
Dealers will be open extended hours, he said.

"My guess is that the stock of Krispy Kreme will probably go up," Lentz said "because we'll be handing out a lot of donuts."

The fix involves installing a precision-cut steel reinforcement bar into the accelerator pedal assembly, which will reduce surface tension and prevent the friction that has caused the pedals to stick, Toyota said.
The company said it has confirmed the effectiveness of the newly reinforced pedals through "rigorous testing" on pedal assemblies that had previously shown a tendency to stick.

"We are very confident that the installation of a reinforcing bar is as successful a repair as it would be replacing the pedal," Lentz said.
Toyota announced plans last week to suspend sales of the models, including its best-selling Camry, subject to the recall. It also took the unusual step of halting production of those models.

Production lines for these vehicles will re-start on Feb. 8, the automaker said.

The recall has taken a severe toll on Toyota's once-stellar reputation, which Lentz acknowledged in a video statement posted on Toyota's Web site.

"I know that we've let you down," Lentz said "[Toyota] will work hard to fix your vehicle properly and regain your trust."

The recall affects Toyota's 2009-2010 RAV4, Corolla and Matrix; 2005-2010 Avalon; certain 2007-2010 Camrys; 2010 Highlander; 2007-2010 Tundra and the 2008-2010 Sequoia. The Camry Hybrid is not included in the recall.
The Japanese automaker also recalled cars in Europe. That recall involves eight different models, several of which are not sold in the United States. The precise number of vehicles involved in that recall is still being determined, but it could be as many as 1.8 million.

The gas pedal recall is separate from an earlier one, begun in November to fix a problem in which the gas pedal can become caught on the edge of a removable floor mat.

The floor mat recall was recently expanded so that it now covers a total of 5.3 million vehicles.

In cases where vehicles are subject to both recalls, Toyota (TM) said it intends to remedy both at the same time.

Toyota has been under scrutiny for suspected unintended acceleration for approximately 10 years. A total of 19 deaths have been connected to unintended acceleration in Toyotas over the decade, according to some analysts, a figure the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration called "plausible," based on its own research.

All major automakers experience some complaints of unintended acceleration. It is unclear how the rate of complaints and crashes in Toyota vehicle compares to that of other major automakers.
Lentz said he is confident that resolving this issue and the floor mat entrapment problem will solve the problem for Toyota. The automaker has also said it is making "brake override" -- a system that cuts engine power to the wheels as soon as the brake pedal is pressed -- standard equipment on all of its cars.

The "brake override" software will also be added to the internal computers on some cars as they are brought in for recall repairs, a Toyota spokesman said.

Lentz promised, however, that Toyota will continue to be alert for issues with unintended acceleration.

"We will still be vigilant and keep our eyes and ears open down the road," he said.

-- CNNMoney.com's senior writer Peter Valdes-Dapena contributed to this report.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, Now TBHP Guys, what do you think of the above picture. I can make little sense out of it, but do you think Toyota is hiding a bigger problem in electronics by this simple 'stick-the-metal' fix? Any electronic fix can wipe out nearly all of Toyota's cash reserves!! Me thinks!
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Old 2nd February 2010, 13:10   #90
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What exactly happened? Interesting read on Fortune. Some excerpts:

Quote:
Start with the part being blamed: an accelerator pedal mechanism. It is produced for Toyota (TM) both by Denso of Japan and CTS (CTS) of Elkhart, Indiana. Toyota used to run with just one supplier for a given part, with whom it had close ties and a long relationship. But ever since a fire at a Japanese brake supplier in 1997 shut down the company's production at 20 plants for five days, it decided that it needed a second source as a backup.

With the accelerator, though, it neglected to make the parts from the two suppliers interchangeable. According to one report, the Denso and CTS mechanisms use different wiring harnesses. In other words, Toyota, the master of communization, neglected to ensure that identical parts from two suppliers were, in fact, identical. Even if they were identical in design, the fact that the CTS part apparently developed defects and the Denso part did not, suggests there were other differences.
Quote:
The management style is one where everything has to do be dealt with at the top, a chimney approach in a networked world. The result is a system in which problems can get lost and solutions get delayed.

Here's how the system might have worked in this case: when Toyota Motor Sales in California began to get complaints from customers about sticky accelerators, the news would have traveled first to sales headquarters in Japan. There executives would have had to have send the issue to product engineering for a design fix, and then to manufacturing for implementation. Only then would it have found its way back to the U.S.

Talk about connect the dots. If Toyota had an integrated headquarters in North America, with one person in charge of sales, engineering, and manufacturing, the complaints might have been communicated almost instantaneously -- and fixed nearly as quickly.
Quote:
And then there is the controversial topic of cost-cutting. As recently as December, Toyota was asking its suppliers to reduce parts costs by 30% over the next three years. That followed an earlier program begun in 2005 that grouped automotive components into categories and tried to lower costs on each one.

CTS said it manufactured the accelerator mechanism exactly to Toyota's standards, and undoubtedly it did. But it was also noted by executives that the parts subject to failure had experienced excessive wear. Both CTS and Toyota stated that they are working together on pedals that meet "tougher" specifications.
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