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Old 5th March 2013, 00:34   #2131
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
The sales figures of V6 Challengers and Chargers are proof that people are not that hung up on displacement any more.
Indeed.. plus the V6 motors are not slouches anymore. They are mostly 300+ bhp, plenty power for most situations. That is as much power as most V8s from 10 years back. Unless you really really want the V8 power. In that case you should get the v8 power and not even think about the v6. Also, gas prices decide what sells more, needless to say what will sell when the prices go up.
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Old 5th March 2013, 00:38   #2132
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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The sales figures of V6 Challengers and Chargers are proof that people are not that hung up on displacement any more.
, I don't see them in the top 20. Could you post the sales figures for a comparison??

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...tml#autosalesC

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They are mostly 300+ bhp, plenty power for most situations.
Very few V6's are above 300hp. The mustang Coyote and Charger/300 V6 only comes to my mind. Which other V6 has above 300 Hp??

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Old 5th March 2013, 01:02   #2133
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Very few V6's are above 300hp. The mustang Coyote and Charger/300 V6 only comes to my mind. Which other V6 has above 300 Hp??
The Chevy V6 (in Camaros, Cadillacs etc.), the Nissan VQ series V6s (370z, G37, M37 etc), BMW V6 turbos (335, 535, 640, X3, X5 - universally used by BMW), Audi Supercharged V6 (S4, S5, A6, A8), Hyundai V6 - in Genesis Sedan/Coupe, Honda V6 - In Acura TL/RL/MDX etc. etc. - The list is long and growing. Almost every major manufacturer has a v6 that makes 300+ bhp nowadays. Of course, the same engines are often available in lower state of tune in the mainstream models - like the Accord V6 that puts out 278 bhp or the Nissan VQ that makes 290 bhp in the Maxima.

People are eeking out more from their V6 power plants than ever before, supplemented by direct injection and forced induction. Some of the cars that have v8 option engine are sweeter with their v6 powerplants, they are lighter, more tossable and inherently more fun to drive than the heavier v8s at the same time, saving you at the pump.

I remember reading that there is a higher take rate for V6 F150's than ever before. Found this story that says so - 100k sales for F150 Ecoboost V6

Last edited by vineethvazhayil : 5th March 2013 at 01:04. Reason: adding link
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Old 5th March 2013, 01:17   #2134
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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, I don't see them in the top 20. Could you post the sales figures for a comparison??
My point was only in comparison to the Hemi and SRT Chargers and Challengers. Not rest of the world
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Old 5th March 2013, 01:19   #2135
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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My point was only in comparison to the Hemi and SRT Chargers and Challengers. Not rest of the world
Still could you post the sales numbers?? I can't find any.
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Old 5th March 2013, 01:24   #2136
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Still could you post the sales numbers?? I can't find any.
LOL. Join a few Charger/Challenger/LX forums and you will be able to see the trend yourself. You ofcourse have the option of not believing me and continuing to believe that in this day and age of high gas prices, people will still opt for a more expensive, less fuel efficient model just for bragging rights.
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Old 5th March 2013, 01:26   #2137
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Very few V6's are above 300hp. The mustang Coyote and Charger/300 V6 only comes to my mind. Which other V6 has above 300 Hp??
Well alot of V6s now make 300BHP --> Infy G/M37, BMW 335, Lexus IS350, MERC C 350.

Last edited by Technocrat : 5th March 2013 at 06:13. Reason: Corrected Quoted Poster's name, thanks
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Old 5th March 2013, 03:07   #2138
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Well alot of V6s now make 300BHP --> Infy G/M37, BMW 335, Lexus IS350, MERC C 350.
I may be nitpicking, but the 335 is an inline six!
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Old 5th March 2013, 04:15   #2139
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Arrow Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
The sales figures of V6 Challengers and Chargers are proof that people are not that hung up on displacement any more.
V6 versions of muscle cars were introduced as mass market / volume sellers be it for Challengers, Mustangs, Camaros, etc. - Earlier they've also been known as "secretary" versions. Most end up doing duty in rental fleets.

That's why some of them are sold with basic equipment and some without a manual transmission.

The V8 high performance versions were expected to be low volume.
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Old 5th March 2013, 06:17   #2140
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

I think That's pretty universal be it the i4 vs V6 of the Accord or the 800 cc of Alto vs the 1.1 Lite Alto, the lower engine options are always for bringing in the numbers
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Old 5th March 2013, 07:00   #2141
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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I think we are confusing terms here. Cummins offshores works to its own facility in India. there are no body shops or Contractors Involved. Cummins takes care that any offshore work they do, does not affect local community. I respect that comapny for that.
You don't see a Flint, MI situation in Columbus, IN. All the RAM engines are made in the US. All the research for US products are done in the US.


An unqualified observation. It would be rather naive to: (i) Assume that Cummins does everything in-house and in-America, and (ii) Compare the US's 15th biggest city to a scraggy one-show town like Flint. Columbus does not depend only on Cummins like Flint does on GM. It is the capital city of Ohio that hosts all sorts of industries other than manufacturing - JP Morgan, Wendy's, Nationwide, AEP, Owens Corning, ABB, Siemens, and a horde of others. Flint is a blue collar GM dependent town, whose fate is almost 100% correlated with the fate and fortune of GM.

Any way, Chrysler is purchasing software services from IT houses in India and paying them US$ just as Cummins buys stuff from say Sundaram Fasteners in India or some ABCXYZ Radiators in Poland, which should also count as outsourcing

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"There isn't a single business side of Cummins that isn't involved with some outsourcing. Marketing, procurement, production, r&d, you name it. They have had a product research center in Pune for almost a decade now."
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very far from the truth. Cummins makes their own filtration systems ( In WI), they make their own fuel injection systems (in IN), they have their own aftertreatment systems ( In IN), they make their own Turbochargers ( In UK), I believe they make all parts except pistons. :-). It is not outsourcing, it is just part of being a global company. I think you could call that offshoring - but all those companies are still Cummins.
LOL to this naive assumption. Do you really think Cummins or any big corp in the US can afford to remain silo-ed inside the US? This is from 2008: "That's how U.S. engine manufacturer Cummins came to outsourced its infrastructure management beginning in 2003. "We had very good success with application outsourcing, and there was a push in the company to consider more outsourcing," says CIO Gail Farnsley. Cummins contracts with HCL to manage its two U.S. data centers, plus two opened last year in Singapore and the U.K. Recently Cummins has been consolidating data center functions, away from having a clutch of servers at every factory to having centralized data processing and "lights out data closest at the facilities," says Farnsley. Cummins, like most companies doing RIM, keeps ownership of its data centers, and just contracts out their management." This is almost EXACTLY what Chrysler is doing today with TCS For your research, the link is : http://www.informationweek.com/globa...e-la/229213529

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" American foundry to whom Cummins outsourced cylinders until 97"
I don't know about a separate component called Cylinders in the engine. You meant the Cylinder block?? Anyway, It is normal to change suppliers for any component.


Indeed, "cylinder blocks" it is, if that technicality makes you happy. Transferring contracts to Mexican foundries in favor of American producers is, by your own definition outsourcing. The Mexican foundries aren't/weren't Cummins owned, and US$ does flow over the border from Cummins to Mexico.

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My point is such a outsourcing/offshoring model should be used for Chrysler, rather than today seen - tomorrow not seen- bodyshop labourers.


"Bodyshop" is so passe, and a bit derogatory too. People working at Chrysler belong to reputed IT houses from India who have been awarded multiyear multimillion $ contracts after assessment and a proper bidding process in which American houses too aree given a fair chance to bid and compete. These projects cover full product lifecycles, major application overhauls, datacenter revamps and work of intricate nature, in which the Indian IT houses bring a comparative advantage.

Your model company Cummins too has been doing the same thing as Chrysler is doing now, with positive results. Cummins has, to its credit, successfully exploited the strategic advantages of outsourcing. Chrysler or any other corp too CAN use outsourcing as a competitive tool, hopefully for good results. (Call it outsourcing or whatever technically correct verbiage that suits you). The reasons for work going out is not just that Indians or Polish are more cost effective, the major reason is that America is simply not producing enough mid-skill workers. Across industries, the talent pool of mid-skills professionals is shrinking. There just aren't enough graduates generated to fill the needs of the corporates. A CEO has to choose between re-training an American at a cost much higher than purchasing temporary services at a great discount from an already trained worker from abroad. By insisting on doing all work in America - a capital intensive nation, and ignoring available ready-to-run labor and skill that is readily available elsewhere, Chrysler, or Cummins, or any other big company is going to shoot itself in the foot in plain English. There is a definite value in outsourcing.

Lets leave Cummins out of this once and for all. It has always been a smartly outsourced (or 'outsourcing', for correctness) company no matter how you look at it, and it has done well. If a company outsources, there is a deeper reason for it than just 'cheaper labor'. Also, to equate cheap labor with bad work is a common and baseless misconception.

Last edited by aah78 : 5th March 2013 at 07:11. Reason: Quotes fixed.
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Old 5th March 2013, 09:26   #2142
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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V6 versions of muscle cars were introduced as mass market / volume sellers be it for Challengers, Mustangs, Camaros, etc.
Excuse me too for nitpicking, but "muscle cars"? Camaros, Mustangs & Challengers are only "pony cars" and their V6 versions apart from being vastly slower than their 1970's originals also get beaten at the lights by V6 Camry's

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Very few V6's are above 300hp. The mustang Coyote and Charger/300 V6 only comes to my mind. Which other V6 has above 300 Hp??
You mean very few American V6's ... upto 2011. The new turbo-charged engines are doing better
And since I'm nitpicking, let's be clear, the Coyote engine is a 5L V8 from Ford not a V6


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An unqualified observation. It would be rather naive to: (ii) Compare the US's 15th biggest city to a scraggy one-show town like Flint. Columbus does not depend only on Cummins like Flint does on GM. It is the capital city of Ohio that hosts all sorts of industries other than manufacturing - JP Morgan, Wendy's, Nationwide, AEP, Owens Corning, ABB, Siemens, and a horde of others. Flint is a blue collar GM dependent town, whose fate is almost 100% correlated with the fate and fortune of GM.
seems like you're venting here for some reason (and may peace be with you), but you're confusing Columbus, INDIANA with Columbus, Ohio. The former is a 30,000 folk town that does depend solely on Cummins more so than Flint, MI - I know, coz I lived there and worked for CMI

Last edited by Technocrat : 6th March 2013 at 02:27. Reason: Only 2 smiley's per post allowed, also No SMS language allowed, please read forum rules carefully before proceeding, thanks
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Old 5th March 2013, 09:51   #2143
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

Well, there are quite a bit inaccuracies here.

First of all Cummins is headquartered in Columbus, IN ( not Columbus, OH) as the poster above me noted. Columbus, IN is a small town - even smaller than Flint, MI. Cummins is one of the most resposible communities in the community.

Cummins has 4-5 factories in Columbus ,IN. Almost everybody in town is somehow related to Cummins.

Cummins has been through its ups and downs , but cummins was such an community responsible company so that they did not shut down any of their local plants. Eventhough , they had various manufacturing facilities offshore- did not off shore any jobs. There were layoff's, but once the economy was back up , those guys were taken back. GM shut down an entire town called Flint, MI and never cared about it.

I never told Cummins is siloed in the US. In example quoted above, I have mentioned that our turbochargers come from UK. Cummins by being a global company gives quality to employee merit and they employ people from every part of the globe in Columbus, IN. Cummins is big on diversity. Cummins does not do H1's for cost cutting in workforce, rather I believe they pay the H1 employees at par or higher than their us employees- with benifits. It is just merit, not nationality what gets you a job here. Once you are in Cummins, it takes special care to incorporate the employee into the local community. All employees have to do community service for 10 hours/ year compulsorily. This is how i believe a company should be, so that the employee feels part of the community. There is very less ill will towards foriegners in Columbus, IN , because the people in this town know that each foriegn worker is gonna settle here and we bring the local communities business. This was my sentiment about H1 guys from India taking money off communities.

Cummins is big in Pune too, the cummins India research facility was started to develop prodicts for TATA. Cummins being an responsible company, wanted to leverage the local talent in India for Indian products and started thir center in India. it is not like they do only Indian products now, But cooperative work gives an advantage in our products. The achievement by Cummins compared to others companies is that, they manage to do that by not affecting their US operations and jobs. They opened a new market by starting operations In India.

I don't think there is a lack of talent in the US. Cummins has the facility to recuit from India, But they manage to find engineers within the US for their core compentencies.

On the other hand, there is Chrysler. As i told earlier, I don't know anythiing about RIM, data centres etc. I don't care to know. I am an diesel/natural gas engine designer. I see in chrysler that after the take over by FIAT, I see quite a few US based body shops employing freshers out of college in their research and development division. ( who are on their OPT and are much lesser qualified than the people they replaced). I think that is an unethical practice and will bring only short term resuts.

I have interviewed a few of them for jobs in My company, the way in which the contractors treat them are horrible
- billed for 80 hours/ week and get paid only 40 hours/ week of which 20% goes to the contractor
- No insurance/ heath benifits
-Cheaper than comparable US citizen salary (which is illegal for a job on a visa)

Last edited by Jomz : 5th March 2013 at 10:21.
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Old 5th March 2013, 10:46   #2144
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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seems like you're venting here for some reason (and may peace be with you), but you're confusing Columbus, INDIANA with Columbus, Ohio. The former is a 30,000 folk town that does depend solely on Cummins more so than Flint, MI - I know, coz I lived there and worked for CMI
From U Mich?? Are you in Columbus still?? I'm also closeby Columbus, IN

I think the following link says that Cummins started manufacturing Cylinder blocks in Indiana itself, check the products at Columbus engine plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holset_...ering#Products

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Old 5th March 2013, 22:08   #2145
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

Note from MOD - We are way Off Topic now, I believe everyone has made their points very clear. Any further post on Outsourcing in US car Industry will be deleted. Thanks
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