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Old 9th April 2013, 21:06   #2431
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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There are very few choices which has AWD (for snow), decent performance and which is cheap. I was looking for a new Evo with a recent grad (from U Mich - they have a love affair for Evos' & Sti's)- who joined our company and that is where I came across this deal.

Yes , it is stiff, gives crappy mileage, but lightly modded, it can keep up with a Corvette Z06.
This is a friend's car on track . His car started the Evo craze in My company

There are quite a few new grads in our company , and the biggest pick among the college crowd ( both desi and US ) is the Mustang. The major sellers are- Corvettes, quite a bit Evo's, WRX's , Sti's, GTi's, Velosters, Genesis , FRS/BRZ's etc- Yet to see an St in our lot. -maybe there is not many available used.
Yes, in areas where snow is there, evo's and wrx's and sti's rule. They have tremendous mod potential but so does other cars you listed.

From the video, i noticed some anomalies. At the start it says, its a c6 z06 427. It can either be a Z06 or a 427. It must be the 427 edition otherwise which had a few interior and exterior mods while the engine was same as z06.

Was Z06 modified? A $2000 A&A supercharger on it gives a whole lot more power (in excess of 650hp).

At 1.53 and 2.0x seconds, the c6 driver didn't follow the line. I stopped seeing after the first lap. I would say, in hands of capable driver, z06 will give the evo a clean chit. Its very forgiving and very fast. Ask me how i know.

Here (in and around Sac, CA) mustang, camaro, ST, BRZ/FR-S, GTi's are very popular among university crowd. Immense mod potential on all of above. I have seen many college guys drive a c5 z06, STi's and WRX's too. But those are small numbers and the reason probably is no snow or odd weather. I am pretty sure, many would be getting their STi's/WRX's/Evo's out at tracks which i haven't yet visited.

As such numbers speaks for itself, i am pretty sure, sales of mustang and camaros are a lot in CA, while there, it would be AWD based vehicles. My friend in Denver, Colorado said that all he can see there is Subarus. Its a huge market there. I can hardly see them here. Its all dependent on region i think.
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Old 10th April 2013, 15:43   #2432
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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From the video, i noticed some anomalies. At the start it says, its a c6 z06 427. It can either be a Z06 or a 427. It must be the 427 edition otherwise which had a few interior and exterior mods while the engine was same as z06.

Was Z06 modified? A $2000 A&A supercharger on it gives a whole lot more power (in excess of 650hp).

At 1.53 and 2.0x seconds, the c6 driver didn't follow the line. I stopped seeing after the first lap. I would say, in hands of capable driver, z06 will give the evo a clean chit. Its very forgiving and very fast. Ask me how i know.
I believe 427 is a convertible, The one in the video is not a 'vert. I believe the 427 just denotes engine displacement - his car description also has 2.3l- which is what his cars dispalcement is.

The Evo driver is an HPDE instructor for 10/10ths. So he is a very capable driver.

I don't think any amount of HP would make the Z06 any faster. It can be seen that the z06 has a Hp advantage and it pulls on the evo in staights, but as you noticed. it cannot carry that high speed int corners and either veers off line or has to slow down further than the Evo to turn. The Evo driver thinks the crappy stock tires on the z06 might be the reason. At 2.18 you can see the corvette losing control at relatively slow speeds.

It is not only Hp, Handling matters more on a racetrack. And that is where an Evo shines.

Anyway, the point is his $30k evo spanked a $100k zo6 on the track.

Last edited by Jomz : 10th April 2013 at 15:46.
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Old 10th April 2013, 16:59   #2433
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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My friend in Denver, Colorado said that all he can see there is Subarus. Its a huge market there. I can hardly see them here. Its all dependent on region i think.
Tell me about it! The Subarus are looked upon like the GODs of Colorado when it comes to automobiles.

My wife and I are looking for a second hand car in Denver since we are going to be there for about 3 years. Getting an AWD was my primary choice and still is, considering the snow. We'll just have one car. I set out with a budget of 12k and am still unable to find a good Subaru AWD in the used car market there.

Can you or your friend help/point me in the right direction?
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Old 10th April 2013, 19:21   #2434
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Can you or your friend help/point me in the right direction?
Subaru's might be premium in Colorado - but you are hitting summer time, so perhaps the demand may reduce a little bit. You could look at a auto listing aggregator like autotrader.com or cars.com etc. to see private party/dealer listings. 12k is a decent budget - If you are decided on Subaru, you should be able to get Impreza (3-4 year old) , Legacy, outback and Foresters (5-6 year old) in that budget.

But as we have discussed quite a bit earlier in this thread, a good set of winter tires on FWD/RWD with a solid traction control system can do fairly good in most winter conditions. I may sound hypocritical - I have two AWD cars .. But then when I looked to buy, they were available in plenty as well, with little or no price difference.
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Old 10th April 2013, 19:58   #2435
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Tell me about it! The Subarus are looked upon like the GODs of Colorado when it comes to automobiles.

My wife and I are looking for a second hand car in Denver since we are going to be there for about 3 years. Getting an AWD was my primary choice and still is, considering the snow. We'll just have one car. I set out with a budget of 12k and am still unable to find a good Subaru AWD in the used car market there.

Can you or your friend help/point me in the right direction?
I have lived in Upper Michigan for 3 years (which has more snow than CO). A normal FWD with snow tires would do great in snow.

If obsessed with AWD, Try CRV's , RAV4's, Highlanders, etc. Those should come within your budget.
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Old 10th April 2013, 20:33   #2436
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I have lived in Upper Michigan for 3 years (which has more snow than CO). A normal FWD with snow tires would do great in snow.

If obsessed with AWD, Try CRV's , RAV4's, Highlanders, etc. Those should come within your budget.
Your statement bears out the recent video that I saw on youtube, where they pitted a 2WD Skoda Yeti with snow tyres against an AWD Skoda Yeti with standard tyres. No prizes for guessing which vehicle won the stress test overall with better traction, better acceleration and shorter braking time...
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Old 10th April 2013, 20:57   #2437
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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If obsessed with AWD, Try CRV's , RAV4's, Highlanders, etc. Those should come within your budget.
I dont think you can find any low mileage CRVs.RAV4s or Highlanders in 12K. CRVs, RAV4s have very high resale value..
For 12k the listed cars are going to have >100K mileage.

@Memphesis.D - Dude, try out the leasing option. If you plan to be in NA for only 3 years, Leasing is a great option.
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Old 10th April 2013, 21:12   #2438
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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I believe 427 is a convertible, The one in the video is not a 'vert. I believe the 427 just denotes engine displacement - his car description also has 2.3l- which is what his cars dispalcement is.

The Evo driver is an HPDE instructor for 10/10ths. So he is a very capable driver.
it cannot carry that high speed int corners and either veers off line or has to slow down further than the Evo to turn. The Evo driver thinks the crappy stock tires on the z06 might be the reason. At 2.18 you can see the corvette losing control at relatively slow speeds.

It is not only Hp, Handling matters more on a racetrack. And that is where an Evo shines.

Anyway, the point is his $30k evo spanked a $100k zo6 on the track.
427 is a convertible and doesn't come in coupe. BUT, in 2008, 505 z06 427 were produced as a limited edition model. Here is the link

http://www.corvetteforum.com/article...ryoverview.php

So either it is a stock z06 or a z06 427 LE is what i meant.

You mentioned the evo driver was a HPDE instructor but what about the z06 driver. The way he drove, it looked like an amateur driving it. How about asking them to swap cars and then try. In that case, the evo driver will leave other in dust. So, honestly, it would depend on the driver, tires and the course. So IMHO, this is apples to oranges comparison.

Ever wondered what would have been the result if HPDE driver was driving a z06? I am not taking away any credit from the modified evo, the way it drove, the way it held line, it looks awesome.

Also you know how much money he has put into mods on the evo or was it stock? If it was modded, i don't think it is a $30k car. The z06 can be had for $70k and not $100k. I haven't driven either on the track, but looking at various videos of z06 driven by pro drivers, its one hell of a car on the track.

As a comparison, i looked at what a z06 and evo x would compare at various tracks worldwide. No way an evo can be faster without having mods. In that way, a modded STi with 320 hp did 7.55 on Nurburgring still couldn't match lap time of z06.

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/chevrole...06_carbon.html

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/mitsubis..._evo_x_mr.html

I don't know why you would compare a stock z06 with a modded evo driven by different drivers with different experience and say evo spanked a z06.

Last edited by chevelle : 10th April 2013 at 21:14.
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Old 11th April 2013, 14:10   #2439
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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.

Also you know how much money he has put into mods on the evo or was it stock? If it was modded, i don't think it is a $30k car. The z06 can be had for $70k and not $100k. I haven't driven either on the track, but looking at various videos of z06 driven by pro drivers, its one hell of a car on the track.
One of the Evo drivers' comments

"Ah actually, no. What you are seeing here is a trailered-in track prepped $80k Z06 with race pads and slicks being chased by a $30k 2.3L 4-cyl daily driven sedan with over 115k miles on street tires (Dunlop Star Specs). :-)"


This Evo was in an accident recently and totalled. Insurance valued the car and its mods worth to be 18k.

This Evo put 420Hp to the wheels.

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I don't know why you would compare a stock z06 with a modded evo driven by different drivers with different experience and say evo spanked a z06.
Well, that is what actually happens on track, when amateurs like us take our "performance machines" out on track. Track can be a real humbling experience for many a high horsepower car & the internet enthusiast ( Been there done that - maybe others will have a different experiences). It is definitely fun and we can explore our car's limits safely. Anyway, the point of the video was what an Evo is capable in the right hands. There were comments like- who and why buys an Evo- Just to give my view on it.

Here is another vid from his team mate's GTR. Same track. It held very well against the GTR- But eventually had to let go. Both drivers are HPDE instructors.


Last edited by Jomz : 11th April 2013 at 14:29.
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Old 11th April 2013, 21:16   #2440
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Anyway, the point of the video was what an Evo is capable in the right hands. There were comments like- who and why buys an Evo- Just to give my view on it.

Here is another vid from his team mate's GTR. Same track. It held very well against the GTR- But eventually had to let go. Both drivers are HPDE instructors.
As, i said before, i didn't take away any credit from the Evo or the driver. But as you mentioned, an amateur driver won't be able to do justice to the capacity of a stock z06, let alone a track prepped. Also the comparison is kinda weird - a pretentious sedan vs a sports car.

In GT-R comparison, you mention both HPDE drivers and how evo was not able to keep up. Same would have happened with Z06 if that was driven by a HPDE driver or a experienced driver behind wheels.

Also, not many people take it to track. Take me as an example. I would probably not take a DD to a track in short term. I considered Evo at one time as a daily driver. Too many compromises. At a little lesser price i ended up with a year old c6. Huge difference.

As a daily driver, other cars in similar price range beats it hollow in terms of ride, noise, interior. The really bad thing, i didn't like was the steering. It is too thin, without any feel. It felt as if driving a $15k sedan. They should have made it thick with good grip and wrap it in leather or alcantara. These are little things that matters a lot when you are spending couple of hours in it daily and taking it on long drives.

So IMHO, it is truly not a good comparo to measure capability of Evo. And the sales speak for itself - who buys a $35k evos now a days? Not many. They need to update it, make it more current and then it will sell more and be even more drool worthy. A FR-S/BRZ gets more looks on road then a Evo even though Evo is more powerful, faster through corners and have excellent AWD capability. That is why i said, who and why buy it? YMMV
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Old 12th April 2013, 00:55   #2441
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A FR-S/BRZ gets more looks on road then a Evo even though Evo is more powerful, faster through corners and have excellent AWD capability. That is why i said, who and why buy it? YMMV
If looks are more important than performance (at par with Z06's and GTR's) , then the Evo is not the car for them.

I was in the same boat. Wife vetoed E46 M3, STi & Evo because they did not look like sports cars. S2000 was way cheaper and ticked mine and her boxes.

But that does not mean that there is not a market for Evos', the guy whom I'm hunting a car for now... He wants to carry 4 friends on long trips, have to have AWD for snow, wants to track his car, needs a normal looking car (not flashy) , easy on maintanance and mods... and I don't think there is anything else than a Sti Or Evo. I'm open to suggestions. Max budget of 40k.

Once that finalizes, I should do a writeup of the sportscars owned by friends. In our mallu gang itself there is a Gti, S2000, Mustang V6 2011 'vert, Z4 and the Evo coming soon (hopefully). I've also crossed fingers to see what the Evo driver in the above videos is gonna buy next.
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Old 12th April 2013, 02:23   #2442
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If looks are more important than performance (at par with Z06's and GTR's) , then the Evo is not the car for them.

But that does not mean that there is not a market for Evos', the guy whom I'm hunting a car for now... He wants to carry 4 friends on long trips, have to have AWD for snow, wants to track his car, needs a normal looking car (not flashy) , easy on maintanance and mods... and I don't think there is anything else than a Sti Or Evo. I'm open to suggestions. Max budget of 40k.

Once that finalizes, I should do a writeup of the sportscars owned by friends. In our mallu gang itself there is a Gti, S2000, Mustang V6 2011 'vert, Z4 and the Evo coming soon (hopefully). I've also crossed fingers to see what the Evo driver in the above videos is gonna buy next.
I think market in CA don't prefer evos and subarus here due to lack of need for AWD at any time and also due to lack of snow. May be in your area, these are very popular just like Subarus in other parts of USA. It is very regional i think. I see sports cars being used here round the there. I don't see that trend in Northern area as most garage it when it snows.

As for your friend's requirement, well it seems Sti and Evo are specially targeted at people with those requirements who are few and far. My point is, the market is not big enough in whole of USA. You can probably find 1000/month with such requirement, what about others? Are those numbers enough to sustain Mitsubishi in today's world? That is why mentioned, not many are buying it even though it is great.

Good luck finding the car for your friend's need. Hope you buy a evo and keep Mitsubishi alive in USA as i think they are next in footsteps of Suzuki.

When you get time, do a write up on the cars you and your friends own. My gang doesn't own such goodies. They are into boring stuff like Genesis sedan, accords, 328i, camry and civics.

Last edited by chevelle : 12th April 2013 at 02:26.
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Old 12th April 2013, 04:32   #2443
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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As for your friend's requirement, well it seems Sti and Evo are specially targeted at people with those requirements who are few and far. My point is, the market is not big enough in whole of USA. You can probably find 1000/month with such requirement, what about others? Are those numbers enough to sustain Mitsubishi in today's world? That is why mentioned, not many are buying it even though it is great.
1000/month?? They only sold ~2000 Evo's last year.

Evo and Sti are not cars which sustain a company. The cars which sustain a company are the Accords, Camry's, Civics and Corollas which sell like 45,000 a month. To sell 1000 per month and to still be afloat, the company must be something like Porsche or Ferrari. No company ever made profit by improving their halo sports car. The way in which Mitsubishi could improve is by improving their Galant or lancer- which I think is what is the plan with Mitsubishi.

Anyway halo sportscars are usually the last to get an update. I've attached the Us car sales report of march- this time got lot more models in there- Including the new 200,Charger and all. If you see the sales numbers of sports (or at least sporty cars) v/s the total sales, it makes more financial sense to invest expensive R & D money in mass market cars.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/04...-by-model.html

So will my friend buying an Evo save Mitsubishi? No, Evo is something which I appreciate Mitsubishi for- For making an actual affordable supercar experience,for those who want it, even taking losses, not like Honda who skipped the sports car market all together. But in the end shareholders of Honda are happy, I don't think Mitsu's are.

And the guy who buys mitsu's most selling car for March "Mitsubishi Outlander Sport" - would care less about what an Evo is.
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Old 16th April 2013, 14:59   #2444
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

Guys, a friend of mine is looking into buying this car:
http://www.autotrader.com/dealers/dd...1&cardist=5596

What do you think would be the right price for this? edmunds.com lists the price of similar car in "clean" condition at 12,765. kbb.com gives a quote in the 13000s. Do you think 12K all-in would be ok price? My friend doesnt haggle well.
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Old 16th April 2013, 15:50   #2445
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Do you think 12K all-in would be ok price? My friend doesnt haggle well.

Fusion has got fanstastic resale value, i dont think he will get this for 12K OTD.
The dealer may go down 500$ tops.

If he manages to get the car for 13K OTD, its a very good deal.

IMHO, Fusion is the best car in the segment hands down. Especially the V6 version.
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