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Old 26th April 2013, 01:42   #2491
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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But have you considered that dealers also include doc fees and other misc fees when they make a sale?

You just confirmed from my previous post(#2483) that buying a sportscar in winter is a great way to save lots of money. And it would be fool hardy not to buy it from dealer if you get a private party value at dealer especially if it has a extended warranty from the start. I did the same thing and as i said, given an option, i buy from dealer or PP depending on who gives me the best deal then. Also don't even for a minute think that if you got a private party value of KBB, you made a good deal unless you a great condition car for fair or below prices of kbb. The correct pointer for a good price is nada guides or manheim auction in west and similar bigger auction sites on east.

Again, you sway from the main point about not waiting. Lets says, the similar 'Vert you bought was available from PP at $1k-$2k less than at dealer, at the time you were buying, why wouldn't you buy it? You save in the price of the car and also save on the tax overall. Simple math i guess. Also the reason he gave you at PP price was something to do with him not wanting it on the lot in snow and already having made lots of money through a trade-in or rebates.

Another sample, say you get the 'Vert at same price from PP and dealer but after taxes, financing and everything, when you total everything, i can assure you that PP will still be a little cheaper. Its because of many hidden fees that all dealers don't mention.
My experiance was , the dealer gave me extended warranty. So even if PP was 1-2k less I would have still gone with the delaer.

I negotiate on OTD prices and compare with Kbb Private party value, So I think I made a good deal on the car. I don't really care what is the hidden fees when negotiating OTD prices. One more reason in that favor is I was offered higher than the buying price next summer from a dealer after 10k miles

Maybe it was a trade in and he got it at a cheap price, I don't know.

Anyway my point is Do not run away from delaers, You never know when they will cut a nice deal , or when they are desperate to sell. If you don't negotiate well, maybe they will STEAL from you. Afterall it is tied down capital in their lot, which could be used to make a profit on a fast moving asset, rather than a showpiece on the center of the showroom floor. (Mine was)

Btw the s2000 club is organizing a group PDR with one of Chicago's best guys in Chicago this Sun. I might got there to fix a few dents and to see a GTR of another club member. Anybody in Chicagoland wants PDR done on their cars let me know.

Last edited by Jomz : 26th April 2013 at 01:56.
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Old 26th April 2013, 02:00   #2492
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

I have a question, Why do people who own cars (often multiple) rent cars? I can understand the scenario where one is travelling with more people or luggage or if one has 10 year old model & has concerns about reliability on long journeys but I have seen folks with relatively newer cars(4-5 year old) & still renting out.

Isn't that more expensive?

One of the reasons I have heard is to avoid clocking miles on their personal car to save on resale. I would think that over a long period one would spend more on renting than the loss in resale if they used their own car.
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Old 26th April 2013, 02:16   #2493
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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I have a question, Why do people who own cars (often multiple) rent cars? I can understand the scenario where one is travelling with more people or luggage or if one has 10 year old model & has concerns about reliability on long journeys but I have seen folks with relatively newer cars(4-5 year old) & still renting out.

Isn't that more expensive?

One of the reasons I have heard is to avoid clocking miles on their personal car to save on resale. I would think that over a long period one would spend more on renting than the loss in resale if they used their own car.
Indeed my experience with folks has always been for the said reason, Munching more miles leads to lower resale.
But the other reasons could be, sharing the rental price with bunch of friends, sharing the long drives, and hmm may be feel and drive newer cars, different models.
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Old 26th April 2013, 02:18   #2494
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

Probably the company pays for it. That is when I have to use rentals.

I usually do not rent for personal reasons, I have only japanese cars and highmileage on Japanese cars don't affect resale value much. But American/German/ Korean cars, The resale value drops like a stone once you cross 100k.

Last edited by Jomz : 26th April 2013 at 02:20.
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Old 26th April 2013, 02:30   #2495
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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One of the reasons I have heard is to avoid clocking miles on their personal car to save on resale. I would think that over a long period one would spend more on renting than the loss in resale if they used their own car.
Some people might prefer to rent a car if their own car is a leased one and if they took it on the trip, it may cross the limit on number of miles as per the lease agreement? Just a hunch though...
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Old 26th April 2013, 02:34   #2496
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Some people might prefer to rent a car if their own car is a leased one and if they took it on the trip, it may cross the limit on number of miles as per the lease agreement? Just a hunch though...
True for lease but then there is no question of resale in Lease na
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Old 26th April 2013, 02:46   #2497
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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True for lease but then there is no question of resale in Lease na
Haan but they are not trying to protect the resale here. They are trying to avoid the penalty for breaking the annual miles limit, which is normally in terms of certain amount per mile once the limit is breached!
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Old 26th April 2013, 02:55   #2498
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

Yep know that & that's why I said that I can understand if one does it when they have a leased vehicle.
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Old 26th April 2013, 03:36   #2499
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

For anyone interested in AMSOIL

Check out the article on testing on Taxis in Vegas.. The link for the 'Las Vegas Taxi Fleet Field Study' in the article has some interesting graphs and pics.

http://www.amsoil.com/newsfromamsoil...email#LasVegas

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Old 26th April 2013, 03:42   #2500
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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My experiance was , the dealer gave me extended warranty. So even if PP was 1-2k less I would have still gone with the delaer.

I negotiate on OTD prices and compare with Kbb Private party value, So I think I made a good deal on the car. I don't really care what is the hidden fees when negotiating OTD prices.

Maybe it was a trade in and he got it at a cheap price, I don't know.

Anyway my point is Do not run away from delaers, You never know when they will cut a nice deal , or when they are desperate to sell. If you don't negotiate well, maybe they will STEAL from you.
As i mentioned before, if you get an awesome deal that is great in your area. Don't let it go. I did the same thing. You did the same thing. But you are just going off track with what i am trying to say so i am just gonna say YMMV.

You may be just concerned with OTD price but that includes everything. The co-worker that finalized Veracruz did the same thing. He finalized the OTD price but when he sat to sign all the paperwork, in one of those legal papers was a small note saying that you are paying a few things extra.

Not all customers are as savvy as we are. We do our research, we do our analysis, our bottom most price and go from there. I know most of my friends couldn't be bothered with all these and just go out and buy a car on a whim. For them, all these doesn't apply and that is where they make money.

Since you have no idea how the dealer got the car I can easily say that he made more than enough to give you extended warranty and a low price. In my case, the sales person was very open and he mentioned how a doctor traded in the vette for a 7-series and accidentally showed me how much the dealership traded it in. Mind you, even after agreeing to the price, the dealer made a cool $5k on it.

As for that extended warranty, was it a certified warranty or a warranty from the dealer itself in which case it costs nothing for them to provide as when time comes they are gonna make you run circles around that warranty. Again been there done that.

And, please read my post carefully. I never mentioned running away from dealers. If that would have been the case, i wouldn't have bought my second car from a dealer after paying a little bit more from previous dealer and if i look back now, i don't mind paying $240 more then as i got a great piece of metal that makes me smile each day i drive.

The second time i was more careful, did my research and made sure everything was in order. It applies to everybody and still they STEAL. The earlier you accept, the earlier it will be better for you. If they don't steal from a deal that they make with you, they will need to shut shop. Also, ever heard about making money from parts and service by providing you excellent sales experience?

I don't mind the dealer makes a little profit of me unless i am happy with the deal. Till then they can do all they want but they won't earn my business and i had be happy to take it elsewhere.

Anyway, we are way off-topic from where we started on tax. Its a often beaten path of dealers-private party debate and each one has own experience to share. Its good to be aware of what's happening elsewhere but sorry to burst your bubble, but all is not well in stealership world.


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I have a question, Why do people who own cars (often multiple) rent cars? I can understand the scenario where one is travelling with more people or luggage or if one has 10 year old model & has concerns about reliability on long journeys but I have seen folks with relatively newer cars(4-5 year old) & still renting out.

Isn't that more expensive?

One of the reasons I have heard is to avoid clocking miles on their personal car to save on resale. I would think that over a long period one would spend more on renting than the loss in resale if they used their own car.
My friends believe in your reasoning. I don't agree with them. But when going out with friends, its best to rent so everybody can drive and have peace of mind about any damage to the vehicle.

We took a Explorer to Mammoth Lake and we went to a crater there that had a 2 mile off-road. Had we gone in a friend's SUV, we would have not gone there since it would mean lots of body scratches and bad road for suspension. With the rental Explorer we didn't worry about going and went there and had lots of fun.

I am one of the few who despite having two cars will still have to do a rental for long trips or airport runs and luggage space and comfort are not the positives of G35.


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Indeed my experience with folks has always been for the said reason, Munching more miles leads to lower resale.
But the other reasons could be, sharing the rental price with bunch of friends, sharing the long drives, and hmm may be feel and drive newer cars, different models.

Last edited by chevelle : 26th April 2013 at 03:49.
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Old 26th April 2013, 04:22   #2501
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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As for that extended warranty, was it a certified warranty or a warranty from the dealer itself in which case it costs nothing for them to provide as when time comes they are gonna make you run circles around that warranty. Again been there done that.



It was a Honda preowned warranty (Hondacare) till 2015 & 99k miles. I bought the car in 2011 with 50k miles.


Just curious- How many here bought a car from private party and got a trouble free car??

I'll start-
I have bought 3

'91 Accord - pretty much trouble free, Alternator and driveshaft needed change (Paid $500)
'99 Accord - Had a ball joint break on me & some crazy electrical Gremlins (Paid $4000)
'05 Corolla - Trouble free. (Paid $7500)

I don't think Private party sales are all rosy and nice either. Others might have different experiances.

Anyway It seems we agree to one point, dealers can be as cost effective as PP (you paid an extra $250, I paid below kbb) , provided we do the research and do the market study. Let us end this discussion here.

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Old 26th April 2013, 19:54   #2502
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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What do you think would be the right price for this? edmunds.com lists the price of similar car in "clean" condition at 12,765. kbb.com gives a quote in the 13000s. Do you think 12K all-in would be ok price? My friend doesnt haggle well.
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Fusion has got fanstastic resale value, i dont think he will get this for 12K OTD.
The dealer may go down 500$ tops.

If he manages to get the car for 13K OTD, its a very good deal.
Well, TR, he finally got the car for 13K OTD only. Couple of people told him that he is paying too much for the car but i think he has made peace with the fact that he'd rather pay a couple of 100 bucks extra than go through the mental agony of haggling.
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Old 26th April 2013, 20:01   #2503
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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Well, TR, he finally got the car for 13K OTD only. Couple of people told him that he is paying too much for the car but i think he has made peace with the fact that he'd rather pay a couple of 100 bucks extra than go through the mental agony of haggling.
Heh, You will always have people who have heard of a better deal else where and keep on cribbing about paying "too much".

What i have seen is, for Fusions, dealers seldom come down a lot. I suck in haggling, and had my boss accompany me for haggling and the common consensus is there are some cars for which the haggling margins is not much, the dealers may come down upto 500 tops.

I am very happy for your friend, He made a very good buy and the car will serve him good.
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Old 26th April 2013, 20:02   #2504
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I don't think Private party sales are all rosy and nice either. Others might have different experiances.
Private party or dealer - nothing can be all always rosy. I know a lot of certified pre owned cars (which are like manufacturer certified through the dealer), have major problems. The only thing the warranty does is cover the repair costs. In some cases, where the likelihood of the car having problems is very very low, you can almost forego getting the warranty and paying the dealer some $$ for the car taxes and warranty. I think your trouble free corolla would have cost you dealer margin extra and warranty (if you choose to get it) extra. But then you knew that it is a fairly reliable car and not so old also, I suppose.
Cars like any other machines, are bound to have problems, all you can do is do the necessary maintenance and upkeep and hope the parts originally are not such poor quality that they keep failing . If I'm buying a sterlingly reliable Japanese car, I wouldn't mind getting it from a private owner after a independent inspection, but a German high tech car - I would rather have a warranty on it.
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Old 26th April 2013, 21:06   #2505
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Out here, there used to be a difference between taxes for private party and dealer sales but they closed that loophole with a harmonized tax (This is specific to Ontario). Now we pay 13% irrespective of where the car is picked up from. If the bill of sale has too low a price, people have been known to be taxed on the black book value (kindda like the KBB value).

Oh the joys of living in Canada!
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