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Old 26th April 2017, 08:52   #5746
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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No hard feelings, but seriously, I always wondered why folks that care about 'driving dynamics' and 'steering feel' and whatever else drive autos....it's like you're desperate to look like a car guy but really can't be bothered to shift a stick.
No hard feelings, but I have always wondered why every single car forum has these condescending gatekeepers who seem to project this idea- "You are not a true enthusiast unless you drive a rear wheel drive, manual transmission, high performance sports car"


Not everything has to be Black or White. One can still still value all those aspects of driving and choose an Automatic due to a multitude of practicality reasons- Driving in Traffic predominantly, Spouse has to drive the car as well and cannot drive manual, health reasons, whatever it may be. It's all about compromise at the end of the day.

I agree that some cars such as the WRX are really not as good without manual and nothing beats that feel and level of engagement with the vehicle. But, this attitude makes one think...Where do you draw the line? Does someone who drives an SUV because they have kids not a "Car guy"? What about FWD? So someone who drives an Automatic Golf GTI not a real "Car Guy?" The Nissan GT-R doesn't even come with a manual transmission. So is the person who drives one a wannabe? What about electric cars? Tesla P90D owners? There are people in this very forum who drive all kinds of vehicles automatic or not, car or SUV, who can be considered hardcore car guys.

Not sure if you are trolling or not, but regardless, every forum I have been to has this same discussion over and over which starts as a "no offence, but..." question.
Getting real tired of this.
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Old 26th April 2017, 10:55   #5747
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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No hard feelings, but seriously, I always wondered why folks that care about 'driving dynamics' and 'steering feel' and whatever else drive autos....it's like you're desperate to look like a car guy but really can't be bothered to shift a stick.
Why do you think these cars have paddle shifters / sport/ sport+ modes? I think people who desperately want to look like a car guy buy stick shifts. When you evolve you will find out that there is nothing you cannot do with a automatic car that can do with a stick shift. Come on man not everyone here is wealthy enough to get a track car and a street car.
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Old 26th April 2017, 22:12   #5748
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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No hard feelings, but I have always wondered why every single car forum has these condescending gatekeepers who seem to project this idea - "You are not a true enthusiast unless you drive a rear wheel drive, manual transmission, high performance sports car"

But, this attitude makes one think...Where do you draw the line? Does someone who drives an SUV because they have kids not a "Car guy"? What about FWD? So someone who drives an Automatic Golf GTI not a real "Car Guy?" The Nissan GT-R doesn't even come with a manual transmission. So is the person who drives one a wannabe? What about electric cars? Tesla P90D owners? There are people in this very forum who drive all kinds of vehicles automatic or not, car or SUV, who can be considered hardcore car guys.
I'm fully agreeable with CHOICE whether it be vehicle shape or transmission choice. I get it. However, on a car forum the reason people will question you is not on the basis of a single post, but on your online persona. That's where you draw the line. On another post you recommended to another member based on the assumption that driving in Michigan would require him to have an AWD vehicle. That and other examples make me question why you care about driving feel or anything remotely concerned with driving pleasure. Driving a vehicle with a man pedal is all about passion. Just as a disclaimer, I've been a fan-and-owner of FWD Hondas. They're driver cars not just because of manual transmission but because of the package - light weight, steering, engine and the ability to shift on demand rather than by some map engineered for a 50th percentile average driver and fuel efficiency. That's the difference. The P90D is not an enthusiast car by any stretch. It is a poseur car that has bragging rights for straightline acceleration. And I'm fully on-board with progress and technology. If you could drive your computerized GT-R the way it should be driven, then no, it's not a wannabe car. Otherwise, you may as well cruise in a Maxima, the g-forces won't upset your tummy.
To summarize, Yes! As a car guy, I love manual.
I do manual everything.
My car is manual, my toothbrush is manual, even my manual is manual
I don't grudge you your choice. Your needs dictate what you buy afterall. As you said, some folks buy SUVs (when they should buy minivans if they were car guys - again, coz of weight, practicality, etc etc) and so on. But it's a stretch to believe automatics are somehow the enthusiast choice for a G37 when obviously my comment pained you to respond.


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Why do you think these cars have paddle shifters / sport/ sport+ modes? I think people who desperately want to look like a car guy buy stick shifts. When you evolve you will find out that there is nothing you cannot do with a automatic car that can do with a stick shift. Come on man not everyone here is wealthy enough to get a track car and a street car.
Define 'these'. For the Ferraris and other high end exotics that have paddle shifters, let me tell you why they do. The kind of person that buys them has an average age of 55 and up. They're not looking to look like retards when shifting gears manually because (a) the power levels of those cars would require some smooth rev-matched shifting knowledge and (b) violent neck-snap gear changes of a manual vis-s-vis a torque converter could upset their co-passengers. But most importantly, if you've owned a paddle shift car, you'd know it gets boring pretty quick. After the initial euphoria and novelty wears off, most folks put it in auto mode and can't be bothered to shift. i.e., they don't use the paddles.

Regarding multiple driving modes - I do think they're marketing gimmicks - and I was there in the room when an OEM's VP made it happen for a midsize sedan sport version. If I'm buying an M5, I either want to cruise and save fuel or I want to go fast. I don't see the point of an 'eco' mode that's somehow mapped differently from Normal (is it going to make my bum move more than Comfort?) or a half-assed Sport that's different from Sport+/Race.

Some reading : Chris Harris 'Saving The Manuals' on Jalopnik
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Old 26th April 2017, 23:15   #5749
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Well, it's obvious you love manual. Whether that makes you a man or a car guy is a different matter altogether. Personally, I don't think there is a correlation.

Putting down another guy because he doesn't have a manual shifter certainly makes you something else.

In my book if you are interested in cars you are a car guy! Period! Whatever takes your fancy.

Jeroen
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Old 27th April 2017, 00:01   #5750
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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No hard feelings, but seriously, I always wondered why folks that care about 'driving dynamics' and 'steering feel' and whatever else drive autos....it's like you're desperate to look like a car guy but really can't be bothered to shift a stick.
Hmm so a car guy loves cars, but only stick shift cars. What do you call automatic cars? Cycle? Bike? Airplane? Train? Trike? Cow? No hard feelings, but I want to know the proper English word for a 4 wheel motorized vehicle with automatic transmission.
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Old 27th April 2017, 00:25   #5751
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No hard feelings, but I want to know the proper English word for a 4 wheel motorized vehicle with automatic transmission.

It's probably not in his vocabulary, as it appears it is limited to only manual and car.

Jeroen
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Old 27th April 2017, 00:29   #5752
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Default Re: Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America

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I'm fully agreeable with CHOICE whether it be vehicle shape or transmission choice. I get it. However, on a car forum the reason people will question you is not on the basis of a single post, but on your online persona. That's where you draw the line. On another post you recommended to another member based on the assumption that driving in Michigan would require him to have an AWD vehicle. That and other examples make me question why you care about driving feel or anything remotely concerned with driving pleasure. Driving a vehicle with a man pedal is all about passion. Just as a disclaimer, I've been a fan-and-owner of FWD Hondas. They're driver cars not just because of manual transmission but because of the package - light weight, steering, engine and the ability to shift on demand rather than by some map engineered for a 50th percentile average driver and fuel efficiency. That's the difference. The P90D is not an enthusiast car by any stretch. It is a poseur car that has bragging rights for straightline acceleration. And I'm fully on-board with progress and technology. If you could drive your computerized GT-R the way it should be driven, then no, it's not a wannabe car. Otherwise, you may as well cruise in a Maxima, the g-forces won't upset your tummy.
To summarize, Yes! As a car guy, I love manual.
I do manual everything.
My car is manual, my toothbrush is manual, even my manual is manual
I don't grudge you your choice. Your needs dictate what you buy afterall. As you said, some folks buy SUVs (when they should buy minivans if they were car guys - again, coz of weight, practicality, etc etc) and so on. But it's a stretch to believe automatics are somehow the enthusiast choice for a G37 when obviously my comment pained you to respond.
Wow! Buddy you are all over the place cherry-picking for arguments sake contradicting yourself and what not. The fact is that we are not criticizing you for your love of manuals. OK, We get it. There is a very clear difference between saying "I LOVE manuals. I would never drive an automatic, I hate them! #SaveTheManuals!" and, " I always wondered why folks that care about 'driving dynamics' and 'steering feel' and whatever else drive autos....it's like you're desperate to look like a car guy but really can't be bothered to shift a stick." which comes off as douchey, pretentious Holier Than Thou, "I am a special master race because I drive manual and if you don't, you are better off not caring about driving and you deserve a 2001 Corolla with a 4 speed Automatic"

So you have a FWD- for some people, extending the logic that you express in your comments, you are also not a true "Car Guy" as you don't a drive a RWD sports car, even in snow. How long does it take for someone to tell you- "Unless you drive a first Gen Viper with a 8 litre V10 and no traction control and stability control and track it every weekend you are not a real car guy or not even a real man" You obviously seemed to be obsessed with it. Speaking of Online persona, were you not warned by the mods for saying this (apparently joking) in this thread?
"And last but not least - in this country only women drive crossovers and compact SUVs. Real men buy Jeeps or trucks or Caddy Escalades."


Assuming someone would prefer AWD for Michigan is not something out of the ordinary to take offence, the audience in question being someone who wants a small family SUV, not a racecar. I am well aware of the "Winter Tires Make all the difference AWD is less important" argument. Most people make do with Good All seasons and AWD. Doesn't mean going that route makes you less of a carguy or by your logic not caring about "driving". You drive a Lancer EVO right? why buy AWD if you hate it so much and have no use for it?

The G37 or 3 series is the enthusiast choice regardless of transmission. I would have bought a Buick LaCrosse if I didn't care about driving. This is exactly what I meant by gatekeeping. No manual= Not enthusiast for you.

Lastly,
This is going way off-topic. End of the day, this is bigger than your ego or mine. This is a community that is meant to share and help others. Making such disparaging comments and gatekeeping will actually turn away people (many of them new drivers in the US). Someone might drive a family sedan and have a genuine question but might be put off seeing comments that bring down anyone who doesn't drive a "Man"ual. Clearly you have a lot of experience and knowledge, but please stop the trolling. Think of the big picture here.

Last edited by VPSuchin : 27th April 2017 at 00:34.
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Old 27th April 2017, 00:29   #5753
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Just a little reminder; this is a thread about cars in North America. For some just a bunch of sissys who drive auto's all the time. I happen to think it was car heaven!
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Old 27th April 2017, 00:44   #5754
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I would back Activ8 up on paddle shifters/manual gear change mode on automatics as well as various driving modes. I have driven a Mustang GT with paddle shifters and an Infiniti Q50 3.0t recently on various driving modes as well as the manual shifting gear change mode. The GTs awesome acceleration aside, for me both of those driving experiences left me wanting a manual gearbox. Maybe I would be ridiculed for saying this but I felt that the Octy vRS with the 1.8T turbo petrol with that slick gearbox that I had back home was more involving/fun to drive. Definitely more than the Q50. I am procrastinating on purchasing a car and I keep renting whatever catches my eye from a driveability perspective. In fact the automatic driving experience is proving to be such a deal breaker for me that I no longer feel inclined to plonk more money on heavier engines.

Having said that I do think that there are various reasons for buying an automatic and buying one doesnt make you any less of a car guy. I used to drive my vRS 80 kms through heavy traffic everyday for nearly 3 years. That screwed my left foot after a while. I also cant afford to buy two cars (or dont want to buy two mediocre cars) so my spouse has to drive the same car and she is much more comfortable driving an automatic. So where will I end up? I think with a balance between my pocket, better driving dynamics and convenience. So most likely a better than average automatic. Based on my experiences till now though - I know what they will provide in terms of driving pleasure will not be the same or close to driving a well sorted manual.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:47   #5755
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Hmm so a car guy loves cars, but only stick shift cars. What do you call automatic cars? Cycle? Bike? Airplane? Train? Trike? Cow? No hard feelings, but I want to know the proper English word for a 4 wheel motorized vehicle with automatic transmission.
The question would be best answered by why folks in India didn't consider Vespa to be a scooter just because it was automatic and different from Bajaj scooters. An automatic vehicle can be an appliance, it can be a truck or an automatic car. What you choose to call it is not the issue. A car guy loves every aspect of cars which means he should be questioning the prevalence of torque converters that are not as mechanically efficient in power transfers as manuals. You should question a power unit that has a carburettor instead of direct injection. technology moves in the direction of increased efficiency. Automatics are less work and "easy to drive" because you don't need to do anything apart from steer. Do you really want folks that are not fully focused on driving while on the road if a transmission option gives them that leeway?

My post was to learn what/why folks that don't drive manuals see in other driving aspects of cars. I feel the experience is connected, like a system and not on just individual aspects. Obviously you must have been needled enough by my post to take it as a direct attack rather than explain. Which kind of means you do subscribe to the theory a bit, else it wouldn't affect you. I don't want to take the thread off topic. If you can have a choice, then let others also have a choice in setting parameters for what they feel is a litmus test for whom they'd consider car enthusiasts. Else, explain.

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for some people, extending the logic that you express in your comments, you are also not a true "Car Guy" as you don't a drive a RWD sports car, even in snow. You obviously seemed to be obsessed with it. Speaking of Online persona, were you not warned by the mods for saying this (apparently joking) in this thread?
"And last but not least - in this country only women drive crossovers and compact SUVs. Real men buy Jeeps or trucks or Caddy Escalades." You drive a Lancer EVO right? why buy AWD if you hate it so much and have no use for it?
FYI, I do drive a Scion FR-S as my daily (and yes, in Mich winters too ). The Evo is for track duty and has seen over 7k miles worth of HPDE. But yeah, as a car enthusiast, I should be obsessed with keeping cars relevant even as technology progresses. Just as a tech enthusiast has a right to question others on a lack of real change on a 'new' device.

As a minority community trying to integrate into a host nation, there's nothing wrong in atleast letting someone who's asking know that a lot of midwest and deep south public do see SUVs as womens first choice while men gravitate to the trucks and fullsize SUVs. If after that you choose to buy something that fits your needs and budget better, it is an informed choice. I'm not painting anyone a corner for buying what they do. When people stop taking offence at every perceived slight, it might make for a better forum.

You mentioned other forums have this argument too. What was your contribution there? How'd the comments on both sides go and what were the salient points? That's info you could share and say 'well, here's how I feel abt it'.

Last edited by GTO : 28th April 2017 at 10:22. Reason: Trolling
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Old 27th April 2017, 02:12   #5756
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Old 27th April 2017, 03:16   #5757
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Define 'these'. For the Ferraris and other high end exotics that have paddle shifters, let me tell you why they do. The kind of person that buys them has an average age of 55 and up. They're not looking to look like retards when shifting gears manually because (a) the power levels of those cars would require some smooth rev-matched shifting knowledge and (b) violent neck-snap gear changes of a manual vis-s-vis a torque converter could upset their co-passengers. But most importantly, if you've owned a paddle shift car, you'd know it gets boring pretty quick. After the initial euphoria and novelty wears off, most folks put it in auto mode and can't be bothered to shift. i.e., they don't use the paddles.

Regarding multiple driving modes - I do think they're marketing gimmicks - and I was there in the room when an OEM's VP made it happen for a midsize sedan sport version. If I'm buying an M5, I either want to cruise and save fuel or I want to go fast. I don't see the point of an 'eco' mode that's somehow mapped differently from Normal (is it going to make my bum move more than Comfort?) or a half-assed Sport that's different from Sport+/Race.
"These" meaning consumer cars aimed at car enthusiasts and more specifically the cars being discussed here like the g37, 3 series etc.. Almost all sedans in the US are offered with paddle shifters(Altima, maxima, accord, civic,camry..etc which most Indian's here buy) . Even otherwise you can switch the gearshift to "S" or "M" mode and change gears at your will. I know each car is mapped differently and have different rev limits . I've owned several BMW's, Audi and now a Jaguar with automatic(actually SAT) gear boxes and trust me their S mode is not a gimmick. Forget the S mode the M mode give yous the ability to shift gears manually and is as good and quicker than a stick shift car. My 2010 750li didn't come with paddle shifters but I swapped for a steering wheel with paddles and I just cant live without it. The enthusiast part of me added a pedal box to eliminate throttle lag and a Burger Motorsport N63 performance tuner kit to add more spice. Of course I like driving a manual car too but its not always fun to drive one in Chicago/LA/Seattle traffic. Most weekdays I turn on active cruise and enjoy the music on the way back home. Am I not a car guy because of that?

And let's just not talk about why Ferrari doesn't have stick shift
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Old 27th April 2017, 03:41   #5758
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it would be much safer too if human error/driver stress could be taken out of the context of commuting.
These day I use public transportation for commuting, no driver stress at all!

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most enthusiasts will tell you that the experience provided by manuals is more visceral. But that's what I would defnly look for in a car enthusiast - to be more involved during driving since it's the passion.
There you go again, being righteous about what makes a car guy / enthousiast.

Last count, less then 4% of car sold in the USA had a manual transmission. Would you really have us believe, less than 4% of the car owner fraternity in the USA are car guys/girls/enthousiast?

I love my Jeep Cherokee (auto). Itís etch-a-sketch boxy design and simple indestructible go anywhere attitude beggars believe. I simple adore driving my Jaguar XJR (auto). It is by far the most gorgeous car I have ever owned, interior and exterior and it goes like stink. I just put my Alfa Romeo Spider (Manual) through a 1600km three day tyre blistering blast on rural French roads. This is what these little ragtops were made for. Open top blasting through the country on B-roads. With a nice throaty roar from the exhaust! Next week Iím off on a 1000 km trip to the UK. Havent decided whether Iíll take my Mercedes (manual) or my wifeís Ford (manual). The Mercedes W123 is arguably one of the best engineered cars ever and I love working on it. Looking over that very long bonnet and seeing the three pointy star up front always gives me a special feeling. The Ford is just a Ford. Practical and dependable and still quite nice to drive too. Admittedly, Iím spoilt for choice and I love it. Very different cars to choose from.

My cars are all very different and I like them for different aspects. They handle differently, some are manual, some are not. They all look very different, have different engines, different interior, different suspension, different engine, different electrical/electronic systems etc. Part of the charm. For me personally, part of the attraction. I like many different things.

Are you seriously telling me Iím not a car guy/enthusiast because I enjoy other aspects of cars than just the fact whether they have a manual transmission?

To me, anybody that enjoys car in the broadest terms imaginable is a car guy/girl. You donít even have to own a car for me to consider you a car enthousiast.

Claiming exclusivity to the term car guy / enthusiast on the basis of a single aspect (i.e. manual transmission) is pretty shallow and narrow minded in my opinion.

Jeroen
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Old 27th April 2017, 04:08   #5759
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Last edited by GTO : 28th April 2017 at 10:24.
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Old 27th April 2017, 08:40   #5760
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"I am a special master race because I drive manual and if you don't, you are better off not caring about driving and you deserve a 2001 Corolla with a 4 speed Automatic"
Great point, I guess when he drove the G37 vs the Corolla, the driving dynamics almost felt similar to him

For you the G37 felt like a bimmer.

It is not like the g37 - even with a manual is a great track car anyway.From the G37 forums https://www.myg37.com/forums/g37-cou...and-track.htmlNow if you had the 370z, Some guys might think you were a car guy.

Different perceptions, Can't we all accept different view points and move along?

Last edited by Jomz : 27th April 2017 at 08:51.
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