The poor man's supercar is back

[2fast4u]

Lotus a poor mans Supercar - Thats a very horrid and bizarre statement i have ever heard to describe a Lotus. lols.

[2fast4u]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

To me, the poor man's supercar has always been the Chevy Camaro/Pontiac Firebird. Agreed, it may not have supercar handling, but its more than enough to put certain Italian exotics in their proper place.

I have heard that these 350 small-blocks have upto 500 hp (N/A not turbo or nitrous) street capability and you can run like a thief in the night for less than 20% of Ferrari money.

Camaros have run in the drags, oval track, road courses and even the European GT championship. Show me one, just one, Ferrari that runs well on the dragstrip as well....the one that did got smoked by a SL55 and (almost) by a souped-up Civic.

a poor mans supercar can be a NX, coupe, Prelude, skyline, supra, the last 2 making even the ferrari gape. the evo is sidelined because of its sedan looks but no question of its power.

[ananthkamath]

I never said the Camaro is good in stock form....a lot of after market upgrades are available for it and you can bring the handling and acceleration to German & Japanese standards...Even with all these upgrades, it still doesnt cost much more than 35 to 40k and you can easily embarass a Ferrari...

Again, I am not commenting over the quality of the Camaro vis-a-vis the Ferrari or Japanese competition...All the other cars mentioned are either more expensive (Skyline,Supra, NSX), or offer less performance at the same price (Evo, Prelude)....

[Gurkha]

Power or not, they are bogged down seriously by weight and basically poor chassis, by the time you are done doing work on them, the prices come close to any well made Japanese sports car and even some German cars.

For example, I changed the tranny on my T/A to a Borg Warner 5 speed which was used in the Corvette, that tranny alone went for $1800 and then labor, I also made some other improvements to the chassis and by the time I sold my T/A off, it had added around $9000 more to its price tag. For that price, I could have then bought a nice Mazda RX-7 which had a far better power to weight ratio, reliability and handling.

[dipen]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

To me, the poor man's supercar has always been the Chevy Camaro/Pontiac Firebird. Agreed, it may not have supercar handling, but its more than enough to put certain Italian exotics in their proper place.

I have heard that these 350 small-blocks have upto 500 hp (N/A not turbo or nitrous) street capability and you can run like a thief in the night for less than 20% of Ferrari money.

Camaros have run in the drags, oval track, road courses and even the European GT championship. Show me one, just one, Ferrari that runs well on the dragstrip as well....the one that did got smoked by a SL55 and (almost) by a souped-up Civic.

:AGREE: completely
For 33000 US dollars for the pontiac GTO ( its amazing), where else can u get a 400 stock horsepower car at this price?

[ananthkamath]

I wouldn't want to question your choice of parts you bought for your Firebird; you have owned one of these and I haven't, so you are obivously the better person to comment..
However I disagree when you say they are bogged down by weight; the new ones weigh as much or slightly less than the comparable Ferrari/Lamborghini/Porsche...

But the fact remains that American muscle is still the best bang-for-the-buck. As dipen says, even the new GTO is good value at that price; And it is said to have a competitive chassis derived from the Caddy Catera (which is the Caddy That Zigs; so the GTO is the Pontiac That Kicks ***).....with a few thousand dollars you can upgrade so that it beats Ferraris & Porsches left, right and center....

[devarshi84]

the GTO and the Camaro are not supercars in any form. They are sports cars.

[turbo_lover]

Originally Posted by 2fast4u

a poor mans supercar can be a NX, coupe, Prelude, skyline, supra, the last 2 making even the ferrari gape. the evo is sidelined because of its sedan looks but no question of its power.

oh please a prelude is a sports coupe good for daily runs arounds.. 210 bhp vtec can easily smoked by an Integra GSR niether of them are super cars (poormans or richmans )...
the skyline and the supra are both sportcars/sport coupes because in stock form they are not as capable .. (please watch the Top Gear - Skyline Vs McLaren F1 drag or details )..the tunning potential of a car will not award it the super car title ...

NSX has good performance to rival some ofthe supercars ...
Will you call a Mustang GT with 300+ bhp stock a supercar ?
super cars need to maintain nd achieve specific criterias .. a Ford GT40 is a supercar ..

transams , camaros are not supercars either ..hah !

[ananthkamath]

Then please state the criteria for a supercar explicitly rather than speaking in a patronizing tone....according to you it seems like being a mid-engined car qualifies automatically for the supercar title....

[Boom Shiva]

Hey I'm a poor man and I can't afford any of these cars!

[devarshi84]

Originally Posted by turbo_lover

oh please a prelude is a sports coupe good for daily runs arounds.. 210 bhp vtec can easily smoked by an Integra GSR niether of them are super cars (poormans or richmans )...
the skyline and the supra are both sportcars/sport coupes because in stock form they are not as capable .. (please watch the Top Gear - Skyline Vs McLaren F1 drag or details )..the tunning potential of a car will not award it the super car title ...

NSX has good performance to rival some ofthe supercars ...
Will you call a Mustang GT with 300+ bhp stock a supercar ?
super cars need to maintain nd achieve specific criterias .. a Ford GT40 is a supercar ..

transams , camaros are not supercars either ..hah !

well said. An Esprit compares with the vipers, ferraris, lambos, the GT 40 and astons and it is cheaper than all these.

[turbo_lover]

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

Then please state the criteria for a supercar explicitly rather than speaking in a patronizing tone....

k man , here goes ...

High - power to weight ratios eg Mclaren F1 - 550bhp/ton

High Acceleration - usually should reach the ton under 5 secs and reach 160 within 10 seconds

Huge Top Speed - nowadays supercars hit the 200mph mark with utmost ease ..

Handling - supercars are built for maximum cornering and road handling capabilities instead of sports cars which jus have more involving handling than their sober variants ..

Technology - what you see in transams ,preludes eclipses are regular up to date technology ...but supercars possess cutting edge technology ...

Styling /Desing - also is groundbreaking like the F-1 inspired Enzo ...


please fill in if there is anything missing ...

[Gurkha]

Having raced in SCCA, I can tell you with contention, Supra is no slouch, 360bhp and with lightweight body, it files, so does RX-8 and Mitsu 3000GTVR-4. Even the Subaru WRX Homologation special with 360bhp gives Porsche a run for the money, check out R&T's test of both.

As for Biased Broadcasting Corporation's test with Skyline and McLaren F-I, as usual they are up to their standards of jaundiced journalism. Thats a stupid scenario, try getting a Mugen NSX-T against the McLaren F-I or Yamaha F-I and see the results.

[turbo_lover]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

As for Biased Broadcasting Corporation's test with Skyline and McLaren F-I, as usual they are up to their standards of jaundiced journalism. Thats a stupid scenario, try getting a Mugen NSX-T against the McLaren F-I or Yamaha F-I and see the results.

correct me if i am wrong ..but that episode wasactually featuring the SKYLINE GT R34 and not the Mclaren F1

i am not questioning Supras capabilities ..
GTR-34 o-100 5.2secs with 170bhp/ton
Supra o-100 5 secs with 190bhp/ton
the 3000GT VR6 is slower that the above..
those are good figures but like i said performance alone does not award the Supercar title to a streetlegal sportcar...

NISMO GTR34 like the Mugen NSX can leave a ferrari or a 911 to dust but the you have to consider the fact that those ferraris and 911 are all running stock..

[ananthkamath]

Ok, then show me which "supercar" with a production version is winning in track events around the world....is the GT championship bagged by a Ferrari (forget Lamborghini, they don't even come to the track)? Was Le Mans GT class won by any production supercar? 2004 and 2005 Le mans was won by a Corvette, which is but a mere sportscar.

Which car holds the Nurburgring Nordschliefe fastest lap title? Not a Ferrari, not a McLaren F1, it was held by the humble Caterham 7, and now its been beaten by a Radical SR8, which is not a supercar in any sense of the word.

What I am trying to say is that so-called "supercars" are more smoke than fire, more a rich man's toy. The real tech is found in the humblest of cars into which millions are pumped to make them competitive on the track. I am not saying that these cars can even hold a candle to a Ferrari in stock form.