Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP Worldwide > The International Automotive Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11th August 2010, 13:01   #1
Distinguished - BHPian
 
4x4addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chennai
Posts: 3,975
Thanked: 2,497 Times
Default Hype Around Toyota Quality Problems in the Global Press

Hi TeamBhpians,

Recently there has been a lot of hype especially in the US market about Toyotas Quality Control Woes and the deadly self acceleration claim. Some people on this forum has been using these news articles to slam Toyota for models sold in India, which btw are mostly tried and tested models for the most part.

I came across this article in Detroit news where the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has found no evidence that faulty electronics caused these cases.

Some excerpts from the Article.

Read more in the article from the link below.

NHTSA has reviewed data from 58 vehicle black boxes, known formally as event data recorders.

The research "so far has not led to the identification of safety defects other than sticking gas pedals or pedal entrapment," according to NHTSA's report to Congress, obtained by The Detroit News.

But NHTSA emphasized that the probe is ongoing -- along with help from NASA -- and investigators "are continuing to study whether there are potential electronic or software defects in these vehicles."

Of the 58 cases studied, 35 event recorders showed no brake was applied -- a sign the driver hit the wrong pedal.

Partial braking was noted in 14 cases: Brakes were applied late in the crash sequence in nine cases; early in three; and mid-crash in two.

Pedal entrapment was involved in one incident; and in one case, the brakes and gas pedal both were depressed.

Data was inconclusive in one case; there was no data in five; and data from a separate incident was presented in one case.

Toyota said in a statement that NHTSA's results backed its findings.


From The Detroit News: NHTSA: No evidence of Toyota electronics problems | detnews.com | The Detroit News
4x4addict is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 14:03   #2
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chennai
Posts: 762
Thanked: 518 Times
Default

I think Toyota like any company had some letdowns in quality standards, especially by its lofty standards and slogan of 'Quality Revolution' however their quality and reliability still remains amongst the top in the industry. Compared with the American brands and even VW, the quality issues with Toyota have been vastly less.

There seems to be some dirty undercurrent of protectionism going on in America with Toyota being specifically targeted by congressmen and vested interest groups.
chncar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 14:07   #3
Senior - BHPian
 
nitrous's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UAE/Lon/Madras
Posts: 6,966
Thanked: 282 Times
Default

What happened to Toyota is akin to Character Assassination.
Rather than working on their quality, some manufacturers exaggerated the recalls so that Toyota looked bad.
nitrous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 14:16   #4
Distinguished - BHPian
 
nkrishnap's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,494
Thanked: 4,111 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chncar View Post
I think Toyota like any company had some letdowns in quality standards, especially by its lofty standards and slogan of 'Quality Revolution' however their quality and reliability still remains amongst the top in the industry. Compared with the American brands and even VW, the quality issues with Toyota have been vastly less.

There seems to be some dirty undercurrent of protectionism going on in America with Toyota being specifically targeted by congressmen and vested interest groups.
+1. Completely agree with the dirty undercurrent of protectionism happening America, just not with Toyota but with the IT and Service industry as well. Example, hikes in Visa fees, senator remarks making the news.

Anyways, they can get to any level to protect the country's political interests.
nkrishnap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 14:26   #5
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

Atleast in the US the congressmen and the general public try to protect their companies . Here ,in India it is the other way round .
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 14:30   #6
BHPian
 
indivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chennai
Posts: 753
Thanked: 90 Times
Default

Reminds me of the novel by Michael Crichton

Rising Sun (novel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All this is after Toyota continues to open factories and provide more jobs, heck they even entered NASCAR
indivic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 14:33   #7
Distinguished - BHPian
 
4x4addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chennai
Posts: 3,975
Thanked: 2,497 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Atleast in the US the congressmen and the general public try to protect their companies . Here ,in India it is the other way round .
Why do you say this mate? Our govt too protects our Indian manufacturers by keeping Tariffs prohibitively high and we wend up paying twice the price compared to the developed world. If the current crop of SUVs prices at 20 lakhs largely due to Import duties where priced in the 10 to 12 lakh range, don't you think Safari & Scorpio would have taken a huge hit?

We as consumers end up taking the real hit as we are forced to pay a crazy price for a good product or a high price for an average product.
4x4addict is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 14:40   #8
Senior - BHPian
 
maxbhp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: C C K
Posts: 1,372
Thanked: 65 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Atleast in the US the congressmen and the general public try to protect their companies . Here ,in India it is the other way round .
I don't think its good for a national economy to protect domestic companies over an "extent" .

Its because of this free market policy that domestic companies have surpassed their own internal quality standards to emerge in their present state (refer quality and capacity).

I feel two products that globalised India
Car : Maruti 1000 --> Esteem-->Cielo and then it was endless
Bike: HH CBZ-->Bajaj Pulsar-->Fiero and the story went on and on and on.
Back in 90's , seeing an imported car was like revered day but now its so common. Thanks to policy makers . I agree we are missing the presence of marques like Ambassador , Contessa etc. I don't think that can me blamed on the policy makers , rather It's company's incompetency to change with the trend.
maxbhp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 14:48   #9
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chennai
Posts: 162
Thanked: 101 Times
Default

It is good to see that Toyota's Quality & Reliability have been established well by this initial report (anyway it is early days since the solution to the problem need to be found & applied fast).

It will be Interesting to see if the theory of failure is probable on other vehicles having similar electronics setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post
Atleast in the US the congressmen and the general public try to protect their companies . Here ,in India it is the other way round .

I would say that the indian government (not sure of the general public though) is protectionist to indian industry. e.g. the crash tests were supposed to be made mandatory by 2006-08 itself but are only coming in 2012 to allow for Indian OEMs to prep their current & future cars to meet these requirements.
rajess_in is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 15:21   #10
Senior - BHPian
 
n.devdath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,964
Thanked: 1,720 Times
Default

The point to ponder here would be whether Toyota's sales have actually taken a significant hit after the recalls/rumors. If not, then Toyota need not be worried.
Does anybody have sales data for the US to corroborate?

In fact, let me quote an OT example here. Over the last week, I TDed both the Endy and the Fortuner back to back to try and gauge them. While a 15k km run Endy had a rattling dashboard, noisy shock absorbers and a dirty interior with a few missing roofline holders(those round plastic rivets which hold the moulding in place), the 25k km run Fortuner was like new, inside and mechanically.

Speaks for the quality, at least in India.
n.devdath is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 16:18   #11
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: BLR / NGO
Posts: 285
Thanked: 163 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
The point to ponder here would be whether Toyota's sales have actually taken a significant hit after the recalls/rumors. If not, then Toyota need not be worried.
Does anybody have sales data for the US to corroborate?

In fact, let me quote an OT example here. Over the last week, I TDed both the Endy and the Fortuner back to back to try and gauge them. While a 15k km run Endy had a rattling dashboard, noisy shock absorbers and a dirty interior with a few missing roofline holders(those round plastic rivets which hold the moulding in place), the 25k km run Fortuner was like new, inside and mechanically.

Speaks for the quality, at least in India.
+1 to that.

I (people) could say that the Fortuner was probably better maintained as a Test Drive Vehicle compared to the Endy.

But then, on a general basis, I do not deny the fact that the Toyota owners DO enjoy a hassle-free ownership.

Not that I have anything against Ford (or anybody else) or that they are bad. Maybe Toyota just does it a little better than the others

Last edited by karpusv : 11th August 2010 at 16:19.
karpusv is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 19:07   #12
BHPian
 
rrsteer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 144022
Posts: 940
Thanked: 893 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
The point to ponder here would be whether Toyota's sales have actually taken a significant hit after the recalls/rumors. If not, then Toyota need not be worried.
Does anybody have sales data for the US to corroborate?
I
Well Toyota sales in US have indeed taken a hit.

It has the slowest 7 month sales growth rate among all major automobile manufacturers barring BMW.

And on a month on month basis for July 10, it was the slowest growing manufacturer. Infact only Toyota and Honda had negative sales growth in July 10 among the major auto manufacturers.
Attached Images
 
rrsteer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2010, 11:52   #13
Senior - BHPian
 
n.devdath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,964
Thanked: 1,720 Times
Default

"Speechless", is all I can say here.

But then, it is a known fact that the US customer believes and shops by data more than anything and anybody else in the world.

Karpusv, do you have something to add in terms of analysis/predictions etc?
n.devdath is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2010, 14:58   #14
BHPian
 
Cesc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philly, Gurgaon
Posts: 629
Thanked: 251 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
Well Toyota sales in US have indeed taken a hit.

It has the slowest 7 month sales growth rate among all major automobile manufacturers barring BMW.

And on a month on month basis for July 10, it was the slowest growing manufacturer. Infact only Toyota and Honda had negative sales growth in July 10 among the major auto manufacturers.
IMO the decline in profitability will be much higher. Toyota started running some large buyer incentive schemes in March 2010. Incentives included zero percent financing for as long as 60 months on its most popular models (including Camry, Avalon and Corolla) as well as low-payment lease deals. Lower profit per car plus low growth means lower profitability.

The decline in sales has not only to do with Toyota quality issues. Ford has got its act together in US and it is a much improved company from a couple of years ago. For details read this:

How Ford is taking on Toyota - Mar. 25, 2010


Quote:
Originally Posted by chncar View Post
There seems to be some dirty undercurrent of protectionism going on in America with Toyota being specifically targeted by congressmen and vested interest groups.
Somehow I fail to agree with protectionism theory as far as Toyota is concerned. Toyota has large number of plants in the US where it manufactures pretty much all cars sold in the US. It provides employment to American workers plus additional employment in a lot of auto-ancillary units supplying parts to Toyota. The protectionist arguement does not cut much ice in case of local manufacturing. Foreign service industry (a la India) or foreign manufacturing industry (a la China) are different stories though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Why do you say this mate? Our govt too protects our Indian manufacturers by keeping Tariffs prohibitively high and we wend up paying twice the price compared to the developed world. If the current crop of SUVs prices at 20 lakhs largely due to Import duties where priced in the 10 to 12 lakh range, don't you think Safari & Scorpio would have taken a huge hit?

We as consumers end up taking the real hit as we are forced to pay a crazy price for a good product or a high price for an average product.
No offence pal but IMO the governement is 100% right in what it is doing. If you look at the duty structure for automobiles you can clearly see that it is in favour of importation of parts/semi-finished parts where the duty is only 10%. India does not want companies to import fully-built cars. The duties are there to stimulate local production in auto-ancillary industry. Foreign manufacturers setting up plants are encouraged to buy from these local manufacturers rather than importing parts.

The rise of the now substantial auto hub in Chennai is largely attributable to this strategy as well as to the fact that India has cheap labor. Government is in the business of creating employment and stimulating local manufacturing. Much as we dislike paying more, the fact is a person buying a large car can pay more (which is why there are excise benefits for small cars as well as the road tax structure is progressive in most states). The gains in the overall economy (through creation of employment, income and demand for goods) are huge as compared to the higher outgo from the pockets of the top 5-10% of India's population.

Last edited by Cesc : 12th August 2010 at 15:12.
Cesc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2010, 15:18   #15
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chennai
Posts: 762
Thanked: 518 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
Somehow I fail to agree with protectionism theory as far as Toyota is concerned. Toyota has large number of plants in the US where it manufactures pretty much all cars sold in the US. It provides employment to American workers plus additional employment in a lot of auto-ancillary units supplying parts to Toyota. The protectionist arguement does not cut much ice in case of local manufacturing. Foreign service industry (a la India) or foreign manufacturing industry (a la China) are different stories though.
What you say is correct, but protectionism is usually the forte of stupid and ignorant people, or politicians trying to appear populist or divert attention from real issues. For both types, none of the logic you mentioned makes any difference.

Also, despite US manufacture, there is a good constituency of rednecks who will still not buy a foreign brand, especially for pickup trucks.
chncar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No hope for traffic sense? Study says quality of driving depends upon quality of government! tsk1979 Street Experiences 14 23rd April 2016 16:18
Uttam Toyota and Toyota India - Forgets Quality and Service ! rhandle Indian Car Dealerships 44 7th November 2013 13:48
Global CV Rankings (Source: Global Insights) aparbansal Commercial Vehicles 3 31st December 2010 01:13
OHC 1.5 VTEC - Is it all a hype or are we not looking under the hood? rex_varghese Sedans 3 4th December 2007 15:14
Does Maruti Swift really deserve this much HYPE ? mangywarez The Indian Car Scene 197 4th September 2006 13:12


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 23:02.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks