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Old 26th September 2011, 13:53   #16
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

He drives better than any body on track. Webber uses the same car. And he was atleast .7 seconds slower. Nobody can get close to him and he is far ahead with respect to being a winner.

In my books, he is a legend and he will be a winner in the years to come.
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Old 26th September 2011, 14:15   #17
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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He drives better than any body on track. Webber uses the same car. And he was atleast .7 seconds slower. Nobody can get close to him and he is far ahead with respect to being a winner.

In my books, he is a legend and he will be a winner in the years to come.
Somehow, I don't feel Mark deserves the seat. I'd like to see a more competitive driver in his seat and then compare Sebastian with the replacement.
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Old 26th September 2011, 20:41   #18
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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He drives better than any body on track. Webber uses the same car. And he was atleast .7 seconds slower. Nobody can get close to him and he is far ahead with respect to being a winner.

In my books, he is a legend and he will be a winner in the years to come.
I'm sure everyone agrees Seb is a good driver but i think you're getting a little carried away. To give him his due, yes he's the youngest race winner/world champion and those are incredible feats to achieve but he's definetly not a legend. And another question to everyone, has Vettel ever had a truly legendary sunday afternoon? All i can think of is Monza 2008 that could be considered. Any others?
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Old 26th September 2011, 21:33   #19
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Alright, Legend is too strong a word. I agree. Got kind of carried away with that

So lets change that to "Legend in making"

But, really, I'd like to have a debate with anyone who thinks why Vettel shouldn't be regarded as the best racer on this grid.

He is definitely the best qualifier out there, since he has trashed a driver of the caliber of Mark Webber. Mind you, Mark is among those rare breed of racing drivers who are (were) beasts at qualifying and normal during a Sunday, a real single lap specialist. He has never been beaten consistently in qualifying by any teammate. Until now. Now Vettel always has a few tenths up on his teammate. Its almost amazing to watch the young kid set "green" sector times at the very last minute of a qualifying session.

In my books he is the best qualifier to have come along since Ayrton Senna.

In the wet, I'm hard pressed to NOT rate Vettel as the best among the trio (Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton)

Lets talk about racecraft. A lot of Alonso and Hamilton fans try to show Vettel in poor light by talking about his apparent lack of overtaking skills. You really need to watch Vettel's drive at Silverstone 2010. Also, most recently, he pulled off a blinder of a move on Fernando Alonso on the outside of Curva Grande with two wheels on the grass.

Now I could go on about race craft or rather the lack of it shown by Lewis Hamilton, especially this year, or of Fernando Alonso for that matter.

The Red Bull may be the best car on the grid, but not by much ! The Mclarens have had the pace to challenge Red Bull on quite a few races this year, and infact have been faster in a few of the tracks as well. Its a combination of strategy errors for Jenson + Brainfade driving from Lewis that has seen them fall so far back behind Seb.

And talking about drivers winning in the best car, remind me again about the R25 and R26 that Alonso won his championships in, or for that matter the Mclaren in 2007 and 2008 in which Hamilton won one and lost another. Didnt seem like midfield contenders to me !

I'll give it to ya, Hamilton won his championship in 2008 in a car that was just about equal best with Ferrari. But Vettel in 2010 ? You will do well to remember that although the Red Bull was the best car when it held together, it faced major unreliability problems throughout the year and he won the championship at the very last race !


Best driver on this grid at the moment for sure.

Last edited by PuntoMania : 26th September 2011 at 21:35.
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Old 26th September 2011, 22:46   #20
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

@PuntoMania I'd say ONE of the best. Its way too early to be heaping superlatives on Vettel though surely this will not be his last championship. And about this years car, its common knowledge that its miles ahead of Mclaren or Ferrari. I think what will cement Vettel's status is if the cars are equally fast next year (and Vettel doesnt start almost every race from the front).
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Old 27th September 2011, 10:32   #21
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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Originally Posted by shahen9 View Post
@PuntoMania I'd say ONE of the best. Its way too early to be heaping superlatives on Vettel though surely this will not be his last championship. And about this years car, its common knowledge that its miles ahead of Mclaren or Ferrari. I think what will cement Vettel's status is if the cars are equally fast next year (and Vettel doesnt start almost every race from the front).
The Red Bull is the best car by a small margin, but not miles ahead by a long shot. That is classic hyperbole at work.
The Red Bull dominates over qualifying but at many races has been challenged on race day. Mclaren have had the faster car on many occasions this year.

The Red Bull of 2011 is no better than the R25 / R26 (in comparison to its rivals ofcourse). And the 2010 Red Bull was not a dominating car by a long shot. It was somewhat similar to the Mclaren that Raikkonen drove in 2005, blindingly fast but inherently unreliable.

The F2002, F2004, BGP001, and some other cars like the Williams in 93/96/97 can be classified as cars that were "miles ahead of the rest". The Red Bull does not fall into that category at all.
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Old 27th September 2011, 10:39   #22
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
Alright, Legend is too strong a word. I agree. Got kind of carried away with that

So lets change that to "Legend in making"

But, really, I'd like to have a debate with anyone who thinks why Vettel shouldn't be regarded as the best racer on this grid.

He is definitely the best qualifier out there, since he has trashed a driver of the caliber of Mark Webber. Mind you, Mark is among those rare breed of racing drivers who are (were) beasts at qualifying and normal during a Sunday, a real single lap specialist. He has never been beaten consistently in qualifying by any teammate. Until now. Now Vettel always has a few tenths up on his teammate. Its almost amazing to watch the young kid set "green" sector times at the very last minute of a qualifying session.

In my books he is the best qualifier to have come along since Ayrton Senna.

In the wet, I'm hard pressed to NOT rate Vettel as the best among the trio (Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton)

Lets talk about racecraft. A lot of Alonso and Hamilton fans try to show Vettel in poor light by talking about his apparent lack of overtaking skills. You really need to watch Vettel's drive at Silverstone 2010. Also, most recently, he pulled off a blinder of a move on Fernando Alonso on the outside of Curva Grande with two wheels on the grass.

Now I could go on about race craft or rather the lack of it shown by Lewis Hamilton, especially this year, or of Fernando Alonso for that matter.

The Red Bull may be the best car on the grid, but not by much ! The Mclarens have had the pace to challenge Red Bull on quite a few races this year, and infact have been faster in a few of the tracks as well. Its a combination of strategy errors for Jenson + Brainfade driving from Lewis that has seen them fall so far back behind Seb.

And talking about drivers winning in the best car, remind me again about the R25 and R26 that Alonso won his championships in, or for that matter the Mclaren in 2007 and 2008 in which Hamilton won one and lost another. Didnt seem like midfield contenders to me !

I'll give it to ya, Hamilton won his championship in 2008 in a car that was just about equal best with Ferrari. But Vettel in 2010 ? You will do well to remember that although the Red Bull was the best car when it held together, it faced major unreliability problems throughout the year and he won the championship at the very last race !


Best driver on this grid at the moment for sure.
too early to even call him a legend in the making.
its a culmination of the team, which includes vettel, but hardly down to his being the best on the grid.

given the right tool set, a lot of drivers look as capable, if not more.
petrov, kobayashi, de la rosa, kubica(if he manages it back with all systems ok) other than the forerunners.

its very fickle, this sport, mostly due to rule changes rendering winners to backmarkers.


I am, to put it mildly, not a fan of a certain german, or his erstwhile italian employers, but the way he pulled a seemingly, albeit occasional, non-competitive car up by the boot-straps, THAT was legendary.
I hated that, still do, but its what he did.

A car already at the top of the pyramid, not so much legend grains, than consistent driving.


edit: miles ahead doesnt matter in a sport dealing with thousandths of seconds.

Last edited by mayankk : 27th September 2011 at 10:41.
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Old 27th September 2011, 10:46   #23
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
too early to even call him a legend in the making.
its a culmination of the team, which includes vettel, but hardly down to his being the best on the grid.

given the right tool set, a lot of drivers look as capable, if not more.
petrov, kobayashi, de la rosa, kubica(if he manages it back with all systems ok) other than the forerunners.

its very fickle, this sport, mostly due to rule changes rendering winners to backmarkers.


I am, to put it mildly, not a fan of a certain german, or his erstwhile italian employers, but the way he pulled a seemingly, albeit occasional, non-competitive car up by the boot-straps, THAT was legendary.
I hated that, still do, but its what he did.

A car already at the top of the pyramid, not so much legend grains, than consistent driving.


edit: miles ahead doesnt matter in a sport dealing with thousandths of seconds.
Petrov and De La Rosa capable of championships ?


Sure, Mohun Bagan can also top the English premier league.

JK. Whatever you said about needing a good car to win races and championships applies to every great driver that has ever sat inside a Formula 1 car. There isnt a single driver that has won a championship in a Minardi spec racing car.

As for your contention of what makes a legend (driving bad cars above their potential), I think you forget that in 2008 Vettel was racing in a Torro Rosso. Do you remember his performances in Monza, Brazil and Fuji among others ? Please dont tell me that the STR was a race winner or even close to a contender at any point in the season.
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Old 27th September 2011, 11:03   #24
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
Petrov and De La Rosa capable of championships ?


Sure, Mohun Bagan can also top the English premier league.

JK. Whatever you said about needing a good car to win races and championships applies to every great driver that has ever sat inside a Formula 1 car. There isnt a single driver that has won a championship in a Minardi spec racing car.

As for your contention of what makes a legend (driving bad cars above their potential), I think you forget that in 2008 Vettel was racing in a Torro Rosso. Do you remember his performances in Monza, Brazil and Fuji among others ? Please dont tell me that the STR was a race winner or even close to a contender at any point in the season.
do you remember his DNFs in the same season(08)?

De la rosa purely base dupon his performance when he was called out by mclaren when he was a TD.
dont know if he would be able to pull something like that now.

Italian GP, 08, the win was more due to weather gods than anything else, starting right from the qualifying.
He and the team held it together, yes, but a flash in the pan for him that season.

Mohun bagan?
ok.but youre asking the genie that you wish for a thousand wishes there.



but ok, I am glad i found someone who's a hardcore fan of RBR.
Place where i watch has only mcl or ferrari fans.
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Old 27th September 2011, 12:03   #25
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

He is well on his way to becoming one. He is almost Nummer Zwei, but Nummer Eins will be a long way off. His domination is unquestioned. He is an excellent driver, very German in his cool, methodical approach.
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Old 27th September 2011, 12:04   #26
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
do you remember his DNFs in the same season(08)?

De la rosa purely base dupon his performance when he was called out by mclaren when he was a TD.
dont know if he would be able to pull something like that now.

Italian GP, 08, the win was more due to weather gods than anything else, starting right from the qualifying.
He and the team held it together, yes, but a flash in the pan for him that season.

Mohun bagan?
ok.but youre asking the genie that you wish for a thousand wishes there.



but ok, I am glad i found someone who's a hardcore fan of RBR.
Place where i watch has only mcl or ferrari fans.
Yes I do remember his 8 DNFs. If I remember correctly, he was out in the very first lap of the first 4-5 races of the season due to people crashing all around him. The Torro Rossos always started from 16-20 place.

This can hardly be held against him mate.


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Italian GP, 08, the win was more due to weather gods than anything else, starting right from the qualifying.
He and the team held it together, yes, but a flash in the pan for him that season.
You call a masterful drive in the wet, in what is essentially a midfield or lower midfield car, lucky ?

That win goes down in Formula 1 history as among the great wet weather drives of all time. I have no idea what prompted you to say this was "due the weather gods" as though wet conditions are lucky for any driver.

And again, a flash in pan ? Hmm, I'm not so sure :

2007 :
- On course to a podium at Japan 2007 (when the Torro Rosso was even worse than the one he drove in 2008) before his crash with Webber - Again in torrential rain
- 4th at China the next race - Again in mixed conditions.


2008 :
-Finished a brilliant 5th at Monaco (again a wet race)
-5th at Singapore (Okay some luck played its part here due to the infamous Piquetgate)
-6th at Japan
- 5th at Brazil (Who can forget this sublime drive from Vettel, and the overtaking move that almost cost Hamilton his championship )

Are you telling me these are all "flashes in the pan" ? They are only flashes of brilliance my friend. There is a consistent trend with Vettel : He is able to drive like a man possessed in the rain. Its a quality that Schumacher and Senna perfected and Hamilton to a certain extent has as well. But Vettel IMO > Hamilton.

I dont know why so many of you think Vettel is only winning due to his car. The same logic can be applied to any driver in F1. Vettel has already proven his mettle in lower teams before he joined RBR :

He had already performed brilliantly in his one and a half years at Scuderia Torro Rosso, which at the time of his joining was no better than the Lotus team of today.

The boy is special. I think Alonso and Hamilton fans need to get off their bandwagon and accept that it is possible Vettel is better than both of these drivers (who no doubt are also fantastic)

PS : I am not an RBR or a Vettel fan. But its quite difficult to not see the obvious with regards to Sebastian Vettel
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Old 27th September 2011, 12:41   #27
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

IMHO Vettel is just another good driver driving an extraordinary car. See the performance of Vettel and Webber when they were not on Redbull car and compare the stats. F1 is all about cars incedentally we have good drivers matched with extraordinary cars to give spectacular performance.

Vettel is nowhere near MS, Senna or Prost. They are legends.
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Old 27th September 2011, 13:39   #28
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?


no, YOU are asking if all the quoted performances are flashes in the pan.
I said the win at italy in 2008 was a flash in the pan, a win brought about by combination of right place, right time(remember qualifying?) and a good drive.

Post that, with RBR, his ability as there is, has been augmented by the car and team.


Ferrari and Mclaren fans get off their bandwagons??
to acknowledge another driver from another team?
...somehow a lost cause, asking that.
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Old 27th September 2011, 13:47   #29
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Vettle may in time become a legend, but right now has a lot more to do to compare with the likes of Senna, Post and MS.

There have been other drivers who have won multiple championships in a row and yet are never put up on the list of legends.

Vettle could also improve over time and go on to deserve this tag but right now has a long way to go.
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Old 27th September 2011, 14:13   #30
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

IMO it would be a stretch to call SV a 'legend in the making' let alone 'a legend'. In any case the conversion rate between a 'legend in the making' and 'a legend' is pretty small.

He has had some good and some great drives till date but it will take much more than what he has already done to attain legendary or approaching legendary status. I for one do not even believe that SV and Webber are racing in cars that are specced the same. In two exactly same cars drivers like Alonso, Hamilton and Kubica can very well shade him.

That said I really feel that SV is improving with almost every race. He can very well get there but we all know how F1 is such a fickle sport. I wouldn't place my bets just yet.
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