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Old 27th September 2011, 14:15   #31
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post

no, YOU are asking if all the quoted performances are flashes in the pan.
I said the win at italy in 2008 was a flash in the pan, a win brought about by combination of right place, right time(remember qualifying?) and a good drive.

Post that, with RBR, his ability as there is, has been augmented by the car and team.


Ferrari and Mclaren fans get off their bandwagons??
to acknowledge another driver from another team?
...somehow a lost cause, asking that.
I think you dont know the meaning of the term 'flash in the pan' :


1. A Project, person etc that enjoys only short lived success.
2. Something which disappoints by failing to deliver anything of value, despite a showy beginning

Now, really, is Monza 2008 an example of 'flash in the pan' ?

Let me break this down :
What you mean to say is Monza 2008 is a performance that is not based on pure merit of Vettel's driving but with a huge dose of luck, which frankly is nonsense. He dominated the race from pole to flag in the rain. There was no luck in that win at all.

He had performances similar to Monza 2008 in the very same season and the year before. Meaning he performed brilliantly in other wet races apart from Monza 08 which shows why it was not a flash in the pain.

Phew. Hope that doesnt come up for debate again.
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Old 27th September 2011, 14:21   #32
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Vettle may in time become a legend, but right now has a lot more to do to compare with the likes of Senna, Post and MS.

There have been other drivers who have won multiple championships in a row and yet are never put up on the list of legends.

Vettle could also improve over time and go on to deserve this tag but right now has a long way to go.
Care to elaborate ?

Only two drivers have won multiple championships in a row. Michael Schumacher and Juan Manuel Fangio. I dont think they will fall into the 'non legend' category mate

Anyone who wins two world championships is already into the top 15 drivers of all time list. Vettel will have 2 championships in Suzuka at the ripe old age of 24 years.

Not a legend in the making even after 2 back to back World championships at the age of 24 ? Sure !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
I for one do not even believe that SV and Webber are racing in cars that are specced the same. In two exactly same cars drivers like Alonso, Hamilton and Kubica can very well shade him.
Do you have any proof of the above ? Webber is not exactly the kind of guy who holds back in press conferences you know. If there were 'two different specced' Red Bull cars, it would have caused orgasms among the British media already.

The second sentence is merely your opinion. I could say the opposite is true and it wouldnt be any more or any less valid then your opinion.

Last edited by Rehaan : 28th September 2011 at 13:15. Reason: Correcting quote ID
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Old 27th September 2011, 14:24   #33
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That race in that year with that team,flash in the pan.
You're unwilling to look beyond that point to see everyone is acknowledging his ability.
Self included.
So cheerios,no further argument to any statement.
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Old 27th September 2011, 19:57   #34
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

It is too early to call him a 'Legend'. He is qualifying first and then pulls away.
As some folks have said, he is riding on factors which are working like clock work now.

1. Newey's Design - the major difference, he has experimented for long and now he is at CMM Level 5 . Ask Kimi how Newey's early designs were, blindingly quick and then 20 laps down something breaks. Ask DC or Webber what used to happen couple of years back.
Things are working now perfectly - that's come out of sheer hard work.
2. Renault Engine - Very frugal and can save kilos of fuel. Less weight --> better car. KERS issues sorted out (Webbo gets the issues sometimes and not Seb.)
3. Tyre Management - The tyres are being managed well.

Get him to start 3rd or 4th and lets watch the fun. Also put Alonso and Hamilton on equally competitive cars and you will know.

I am not saying that Vettel is like Jacques Villeuneuve who won in the Williams a decade or more back. The car was just too good , any driver would have won. Vettel is much more than JV. BUT....not there yet.
My 2 cents.
(I hope I have given good amount of Ronspeak above)

Cheers !
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Old 27th September 2011, 20:37   #35
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

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Originally Posted by myavu View Post
Legend. Let him at least lift 5 championships first. Legends in making, OK if there was Red Bull cars available for top five drivers then Alonso, Jenson, Lewis and the only real legend driving (MS) would have been winning many races. Vettel is a good racer. We can call him phenomenal when he starts fighting with those mentioned above driving equally good cars. RB had benefited hugely from pre-resourse restriction agreement and an era after double diffuser (which Brown interpreted different from other teams) which had a consistent technical regulations. RB may dominate yet another year(50% chance) which don't have any major regulation change. But I believe Ferrari and Mercedes will bring race winning cars next year and the exhaust moving from sides to back will hold RB shear pace (end to hot blown diffuser)

Cheers!

Vinu
Ok, If this is your criteria, then Juan Manuel Fangio is just eligible and there will be only One Legend MS. I doubt anyone has won 5 or More than 5 championships in F1 other than these two. I do not want to comment about he is Legend or not thats experts Job and am not as i have not even raced a Kart more than 70 CC. Yes but People like Bernie , Sir Jackie stewart calls him as one of the greatest. And in F1 i dont think if ever, all good drivers will drive equal cars. This was the same case when MS was champion, Alonso was Champion, Mika Was Champion, then why you want same cars for all if Seb becomes champion.

In F1 you have to be at Right place(team) at right time, with right car and this is what Seb is enjoying with his great driving ability.

Last edited by parimal_g : 27th September 2011 at 20:39.
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Old 28th September 2011, 09:49   #36
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post


Do you have any proof of the above ? Webber is not exactly the kind of guy who holds back in press conferences you know. If there were 'two different specced' Red Bull cars, it would have caused orgasms among the British media already.

The second sentence is merely your opinion. I could say the opposite is true and it wouldnt be any more or any less valid then your opinion.
Dear Punto

The comment of about the two cars not being identical was NOT mine. And so ofcourse I have no proofs either way about it. Yet when you commented on it in the post is came across as if it were my quote?

Pls check how that happened at your end.

PS: In the comment that I did make, when I referred to many drivers winning 2 championships I didn't actually mean back to back (though that is what the post reads) but meant multiple, that was a result of highspeed typing and thoughts flowing faster than the typing speed. Back to Back is in my view not relavent. Though it is an interesting observation that you make about the people who have done that.
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Old 28th September 2011, 10:04   #37
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Dear Punto

The comment of about the two cars not being identical was NOT mine. And so ofcourse I have no proofs either way about it. Yet when you commented on it in the post is came across as if it were my quote?

Pls check how that happened at your end.

PS: In the comment that I did make, when I referred to many drivers winning 2 championships I didn't actually mean back to back (though that is what the post reads) but meant multiple, that was a result of highspeed typing and thoughts flowing faster than the typing speed. Back to Back is in my view not relavent. Though it is an interesting observation that you make about the people who have done that.
Yep, sorry about that, I didnt change the name of the poster there, it was Cesc's post.

Cheers
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Old 28th September 2011, 11:54   #38
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Smile re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by parimal_g View Post
Ok, If this is your criteria, then Juan Manuel Fangio is just eligible and there will be only One Legend MS. I doubt anyone has won 5 or More than 5 championships in F1 other than these two. I do not want to comment about he is Legend or not thats experts Job and am not as i have not even raced a Kart more than 70 CC. Yes but People like Bernie , Sir Jackie stewart calls him as one of the greatest. And in F1 i dont think if ever, all good drivers will drive equal cars. This was the same case when MS was champion, Alonso was Champion, Mika Was Champion, then why you want same cars for all if Seb becomes champion.

In F1 you have to be at Right place(team) at right time, with right car and this is what Seb is enjoying with his great driving ability.
Hope you had watch MS's races pre-2000 era. When he was fighting with MiKa, Jack, Senna, etc.
Legends are not born overnight

What ever said we can never call Vettel a legend or legend in making for the time being. Let us wait few more years and judge. If next year he is De-throned then all this hype will recede.

Cheers!

Vinu
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Old 28th September 2011, 19:56   #39
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by myavu View Post
Hope you had watch MS's races pre-2000 era. When he was fighting with MiKa, Jack, Senna, etc.
Legends are not born overnight

What ever said we can never call Vettel a legend or legend in making for the time being. Let us wait few more years and judge. If next year he is De-throned then all this hype will recede.

Cheers!

Vinu
You took me wrong here, am no one to say Shumi is Legend or not, i want to say, if this is your criteria then there will be only two Legends in F1.
And formula 1 is more about Car than driver, yes driver skills are there but the should have right Car to prove the same. As Mika used to say my team mate is my First Competitor as he has the same equipment as i am having.

And to become a Legend, one needs to have many other qualities than driving alone.You have to be perfect Ambassador of the sport.

But we can definitely say Vettle has qualities to become one of the best, and Monza 2008 is proof of that.
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Old 29th September 2011, 00:20   #40
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Smile re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by parimal_g View Post
But we can definitely say Vettle has qualities to become one of the best, and Monza 2008 is proof of that.
Let us give him few more years.

Cheers!

Vinu
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Old 29th September 2011, 00:46   #41
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Default re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Good. Yeah. Legend ? Too early don't you think ?

I want to see him race Hamilton/ Alonso / Schumi on a level playing field with equally capable cars. What he is doing now is very similar to what schumi did (00 to 04). I want to see 07 or a 08 kinda competition All the best to him.
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Old 29th September 2011, 10:49   #42
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Default Re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Guys
Do a search on Lewis Hamilton on youtube and you will get 3 compilations on his overtakes. Real gems. Search on Kimi and you will get many.

Next year unless Ferrari mount a challenge, Seb will again have a stroll in the park. McLaren will blunder initially and be very busy doing a catchup anyways ( I hate to say that, they haven't managed to retain Newey, Alonso,Kimi and others to mount a proper challenge).
Lets review the thread sometime in 2014 to see where we stand !! We have many changes coming in then. Who knows Kimi might back ?

ciao.
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Old 29th September 2011, 12:22   #43
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Default Re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Its not as if Vettel does not know to overtake or defend. That is a big misconception.

Just some instances of him overtaking other drivers :

- At Barcelona Vettel overtook the likes of Massa, Rosberg and Button in just one lap in clean and precise moves. (Forgotten about it already ?)

- At Australia he overtook Jenson Button around the outside in a brilliant move at the start of the race

- At Monza he put two wheels on the grass and overtook Fernando Alonso around the outside of Curva Grande in another extremely ballsy move.

- At China in 2010, he took exactly one lap to overtake Michael Schumacher while Hamilton took nearly 5 to do the same just before him.

-At Silverstone in 2010, Vettel started from the back of the grid and proceeded to pick up places like nobody's business including a memorable move on Adrian Sutil at Becketts near the end of the race.

These are the moves I just remember off the top of my head. I am pretty sure you'll get loads more if you do a thorough examination of his 08 and 09 seasons.

You see more video compilations of overtaking moves of Kimi and Hamilton, because they find (or in case of Kimi used to find) themselves at the back of the grid more often than Vettel. In case of Kimi it was more a case of his car failing on him in qualifying in Mclaren which forced him to start at the back. In case of Hamilton his reckless driving / driver error has pushed him down the grid far too many times which is why he has to start picking up the pieces from there.

On the other hand Vettel almost always manages to keep his nose clean and fights with those up front. You should know that its much easier to overtake a Virgin / Williams / Force India etc when you're driving a race winning car. Almost all of Vettel's best moves have been against the top F1 drivers (Alonso, Button, Massa, Rosberg, Hamilton) driving the best cars.


Its not as if Vettel cant overtake. When its needed, he almost always does (Spa and Turkey 2010 is obviously an exception). Most other times he drives well enough to keep the others hunting for him, so he doesnt need any overtakes.

Last edited by PuntoMania : 29th September 2011 at 12:24.
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Old 29th September 2011, 15:11   #44
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Default Re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by myavu View Post
Hope you had watch MS's races pre-2000 era. When he was fighting with MiKa, Jack, Senna, etc.
Legends are not born overnight
Remember for almost a decade the F1 honcho's had a single point agenda, "Stop Schumi". Vettel has the makings of a legend, let him do it for five years, and preferably in this period bring up another car from the dumps!
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Old 29th September 2011, 15:32   #45
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Default Re: Sebastian Vettel !! Is he a Legend ?

Team Principal Christian Horner answers the question asked in this thread!

"He is getting better with every bit of experience that he gains"

Legends dont gain experience, do they?
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