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Old 11th December 2012, 09:27   #376
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Same can be said about the other drivers too.

Hamilton had the Fastest car, but mechanical failures and his folly mid season made him fall out of WDC contention.
Care to explain?

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Schumacher is still at his Best, inspite of numerous mechanical failures (thrice more than his compatriot at Mercedes ) He still managed what best he could with a car much slower than the williams / Sauber / Force India. What if he exchanged seats in the Red-Bull
Sorry I disagree. MSC from 1991-2006 was from a different planet. Keeping aside Schumis race day problems, Nico beat him 41-17 in qualifying alone. Of course Micheal had to suffer lot of mechanical issues during races but still Nico had upper hand over their time together. Schumi did show glimpses of his genius but that was rare. I admire his courage to race all out at 40+ age but sadly Schumi Mk2 is nowhere compared to the master Schumi Mk1. I am Schumi fan but this is the reality.
I dont really believe in them but some cold statistics here http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/1...d-at-mercedes/

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Old 11th December 2012, 09:28   #377
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Fernando is as good as his car, same with Vettel / Hamilton. Drivers like Senna and Schumacher are born once in a lifetime. Presently on the grid, there are none to emulate that kind of Aura.
Ohhh, come on, Schumacher and Senna were great, HISTORY. We have live in the present, can visit past once in a while.

Alonso is the greatest of the current lot of drivers. He certainly gets more out of the car than any other driver.
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Old 11th December 2012, 09:43   #378
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Care to explain?


Sorry I disagree. MSC from 1991-2006 was from a different planet. Keeping aside Schumis race day problems, Nico beat him 41-17 in qualifying alone. Of course Micheal had to suffer lot of mechanical issues during races but still Nico had upper hand over their time together. Schumi did show glimpses of his genius but that was rare. I admire his courage to race all out at 40+ age but sadly Schumi Mk2 is nowhere compared to the master Schumi Mk1. I am Schumi fan but this is the reality.
I dont really believe in them but some cold statistics here http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/1...d-at-mercedes/
After the win at China, Roseberg was never able to put up a fight in the coming races, it was Schumacher who showed his skills on track.

Hamilton, had he chosen to stay at Mclaren, he would have won the WDC for sure.

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Ohhh, come on, Schumacher and Senna were great, HISTORY. We have live in the present, can visit past once in a while.

Alonso is the greatest of the current lot of drivers. He certainly gets more out of the car than any other driver.
Well, if 10 people agree with what you say, there are 20 other against it

If winning 2 WDC makes him the Best in the Grid, then Vettel is already a Legend for his 3rd WDC. What say..?

Everyone knows Fernando's arm twisting techniques in the teams he's been, Ask Flavio Briatore and Martin Whitmarsh

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Old 11th December 2012, 09:48   #379
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Well, if 10 people agree with what you say, there are 20 other against it

If winning 2 WDC makes him the Best in the Grid, then Vettel is already a Legend for his 3rd WDC. What say..?

Everyone knows Fernando's arm twisting techniques in the teams he's been, Ask Flavio Briatore and Martin Whitmarsh
Yes, Alonso arm twisted earlier and continues to do it. But, he is the best of the current lot. A lot of people have forgotten is 2 WDCs, there were so long ago. People remember him because of his recent exploits driving the pigs produced by Ferrari.

Vettel is a very good driver, no doubt. I would like to see him in a mediocre car before thrusting greatness upon him.
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Old 11th December 2012, 10:46   #380
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Vettel is a very good driver, no doubt. I would like to see him in a mediocre car before thrusting greatness upon him.
Check out the 2008 Italian Grand Prix where Vettel won with a Toro Rosso. I hope you would agree that Toro Rosso is a mediocre car.
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Old 11th December 2012, 10:49   #381
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Check out the 2008 Italian Grand Prix where Vettel won with a Toro Rosso. I hope you would agree that Toro Rosso is a mediocre car.
That was one rain marred race Any more stand out performances? This is not to deny his greatness, give him time and mediocre car to show how great he is.

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Old 11th December 2012, 11:03   #382
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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That was one rain marred race Any more stand out performances?
Exactly!

Vettel has been winning since he started winning. To fall and get up again separates the men from the boys. Vettel hasn't fallen so far. You can call it his honeymoon period. There's no doubt he's very very good but it's that final piece which is missing from him being great. Just my opinion.

And I am surprised some MS fans can't see the similarities between MS & Alonso (except running into competitors). Double WDCs under Flavio, difficult years after, wringing everything out of the car.
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Old 11th December 2012, 11:03   #383
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Alonso would destroy most drivers today.
Definitely, Sutil is not a great driver, but he is certainly better than di Resta and Hulkenberg at the moment. SFI have also invested time in him.
A driver cannot be much better than the car he has.
In the old days, the contribution of a driver was much more. Today, the car is the most important, then only the driver.
This season has effectively proved who the best driver is. If you give alonso JCB digger, he probably would still drive the wheels off that thing.
However next season might be quite different, ferrari test car has got new suspension mounts , which seems to have solved some of there Drag problems. Apparently their previous design prevented them from using low rear ride hight. Ferrari's underbody wasnt generating enough downforce ,and the rules prevented them from changing chassis design during the season.

In the hands of test drivers , the Test car is faster by full 1 second , who knows what Alonso could do with all the winter testing still to come.
It still is a Test proto, dont know it the changes will get go ahead for next season, which they should.
Also one second improvement is still only Catch up Job with red bulls, They would also be improving there own package.

Ferrari has improved there Intake and inlet valve package aswell, BHP gains of 45-70bhp , but its still has to be track proven.

Last edited by dustom_99 : 11th December 2012 at 11:19.
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Old 11th December 2012, 11:06   #384
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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However next season might be quite different, ferrari test car has got new suspension mounts , which seems to have solved some of there Drag problems. Apparently their previous design prevented them from using low rear ride hight. Ferrari's underbody wasnt generating enough downforce ,and the rules prevented them from changing chassis design during the season.

In the hands of test drivers , the Test car is faster by full 1 second , who knows what Alonso could do with all the winter testing still to come.
It still is a Test proto, dont know it the changes will get go ahead for next season, which they should.
Also one second improvement is still only Catch up Job with red bulls, They would also be improving there own package.

Ferrari has improved there Intake and inlet valve package aswell, BHP gains of 45-70bhp , but its still has to be track proven.
Your source please?

And when did these test drivers get a chance to drive it?
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Old 11th December 2012, 11:14   #385
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Your source please?

And when did these test drivers get a chance to drive it?
Company test drivers, not F1 test drivers. F1 testing is banned during season, not manufacturer's proto testing at there own facility. Prototype is not classified as F1 car unless it is homologated by FIA.

Sources : I would not say classified,Tech analyst (Gearbox EN engineer,production vehicles,Ferrari)
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Old 11th December 2012, 11:32   #386
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
After the win at China, Roseberg was never able to put up a fight in the coming races, it was Schumacher who showed his skills on track.
Skills. Oh yes you are absolutely right.

In other news, FIA opens up on F1 stewarding http://www.crash.net/f1/news/186740/...tewarding.html

Last edited by akshay380 : 11th December 2012 at 11:33.
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Old 11th December 2012, 12:34   #387
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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That was one rain marred race Any more stand out performances? This is not to deny his greatness, give him time and mediocre car to show how great he is.
If Alonso could always do miracles with a mediocre car, they why couldn't he do it in 2009? This year's Ferrari definitely had better reliability than Redbull.

I dont think we can blame Vettel for accepting a seat in Redbull for his second full season in 2009. Can we? RBR was definitely a mediocre car in 2008 when Vettel accepted that seat.

Why is it that any car Alonso drives suddenly becomes mediocre? Also, why is anything that Vettel drives suddenly becoming extraordinary? 2008 RBR was definitely far from extraordinary, managing just 7th in constructors standing and a single podium between the 2 drivers.

If a driver can contribute in a better fashion to making the team improve the car performance by giving the right feedback at the right time, that is something we should give the credit to the driver. If Vettel has the ability to clearly articulate what he expects from the car and Fernando cannot match that contribution in Ferrari, then I dont think that is Vettel's fault.

Well thought out and clear requirements early on are much better to build rather than the break-fix or band-aid approach. This is something that is a grey area for everyone of us since it happens during the winter and pre-season testing and we don't have insights into who contributes to what extent. We can only conclude based on the results and the one-off news articles like these:

Quote:
Only one F1 driver visited Pirelli's factory last year in order to gather all the information possible ahead of its return to the sport this year. As Jonathan Noble explains, there are no big prizes for guessing who that driver was

Here is a Formula 1 quiz question for you. Out of the regular drivers who have thrilled us with their racing this year, how many of them thought it would be a good idea to go and visit Pirelli's headquarters last winter to find out all about its tyres ahead of its grand prix racing return?

Was it just the frontrunners who could be bothered to take a day out of their holidays to go and get an understanding of what to expect from Pirelli's products in 2011? After all, it made perfect sense to find out what was on the horizon, with F1 openly preparing itself for a very different type of rubber compared to what had been delivered before.
Source: http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...er-his-rivals/

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Vettel has been winning since he started winning. To fall and get up again separates the men from the boys. Vettel hasn't fallen so far.
If Redbull was a team that was consistently winning before Vettel came, I could agree. They were never on top to fall down. RBR got their first win only after Vettel joined them which makes a slight difference. This is a driver who grew along with the team. And keeping that momentum going ever since for the last 4 years (I'm speaking about being competitive and not about winning the championship) is also an indication that it was not a one-off case or a stroke of luck. 'Not having failed yet' is definitely not something that should be a disqualification! What if he continues in the same fashion and wins the next 4 WDC and retires? I said 4 just because that would put his total to 7, which is the current record. Would we still think this guy is a boy because he never fell?
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Old 11th December 2012, 14:22   #388
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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If Alonso could always do miracles with a mediocre car, they why couldn't he do it in 2009? This year's Ferrari definitely had better reliability than Redbull.
Never said or claimed that he or any other driver could add 1-2 seconds to a car. I don't think any driver can, be it Alonso, Vettel or MS or Senna (A. not B.).

Quote:
Why is it that any car Alonso drives suddenly becomes mediocre? Also, why is anything that Vettel drives suddenly becoming extraordinary? 2008 RBR was definitely far from extraordinary, managing just 7th in constructors standing and a single podium between the 2 drivers.
Big change in regulations. That is what gave Brawn the championship and gave RBR a chance to catch up. Ferrari and Mclaren were caught out because of the late season fight in 2008.

Quote:
If a driver can contribute in a better fashion to making the team improve the car performance by giving the right feedback at the right time, that is something we should give the credit to the driver. If Vettel has the ability to clearly articulate what he expects from the car and Fernando cannot match that contribution in Ferrari, then I dont think that is Vettel's fault.

Well thought out and clear requirements early on are much better to build rather than the break-fix or band-aid approach. This is something that is a grey area for everyone of us since it happens during the winter and pre-season testing and we don't have insights into who contributes to what extent. We can only conclude based on the results and the one-off news articles like these:

Source: http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...er-his-rivals/
If cars could improve just by driver feedback, then teams wouldn't invest millions of $$ in wind-tunnels/CFD aids etc. etc. I don't think anyone in the pit lane can claim that RBR was faster because SV gave a better feedback than FA.

Quote:
What if he continues in the same fashion and wins the next 4 WDC and retires? I said 4 just because that would put his total to 7, which is the current record. Would we still think this guy is a boy because he never fell?
That would be stupid, wouldn't it? There are several scales to measure. I will use another scale.
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Old 11th December 2012, 18:05   #389
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
If winning 2 WDC makes him the Best in the Grid, then Vettel is already a Legend for his 3rd WDC. What say..?
I dont think no of WDCs can be the ONLY yardstick for how good a driver is.
It has to be seen with respect to how fast the car he is driving has been as well.

Fernando Alonso has been voted the driver that all team principals would like to have in their team.
http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/35811.html

To give you an example, Karun Chandhok puts Vettel at being the 4th fastest driver this year
http://en.espnf1.com/brazil/motorsport/story/96620.html
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Old 12th December 2012, 09:52   #390
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Default Re: The 2012 Formula One Season

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Fernando Alonso has been voted the driver that all team principals would like to have in their team.
http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/35811.html
No team boss wants Kimi, is it because Kimi is not interested in endorsements? Or he knows what he wants to do, not told by the bosses
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