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Old 15th May 2012, 15:19   #16
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

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Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
While your point about overtaking being far lesser is valid, the issue was not down to tyres as you're trying to put it down to.
I am not trying to do that. Reason was aero as you mention.

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Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
Bridgestone was not the sole reason we had lesser overtaking. This is a big misconception we seem to have here. It was the peculiar aerodynamic characteristics of the cars, mostly downforce. Engineers, kept coming up with newer and newer aero innovations in the race to make their cars faster.
What this led to directly was an increase in the dirty air for the following car.

Modern F1 cars are designed to run in clean air, the wind tunnels that teams spend so much time on give simulations of an F1 car against clean air as it is near impossible to simulate the dirty/ turbulent air that comes from following another car closely. This is why we saw most of the F1 cars in the naughties struggle with following other cars.

The biggest difference in the 80s and early 90s and the 00's was the use of huge amounts of powerful computers that simulate new parts and bring more and more aerodynamic efficiency to F1 cars. Now aero innovations are much better, we see small plates added to the front wing / back wing each weekend like a transformers movie.

The FIA has constantly been trying to restrict downforce on F1 cars by banning double diffusers, exhaust blown diffusers, movable aero, etc etc. This didnt work as the engineers are too clever.

So they used option B : Give the cars really bad tyres so everyone is restricted. Now downforce does not matter anymore although the method by which it is restricted (i.e. by giving everyone stih tyres) is simply wrong.
Yes. Correct thing would be to cut aero more (give them harder/better tyres after that) but the big teams wouldn't agree because of the resources they have invested into plus the fact that it might let the smaller teams a fight it out with the big ones (like these days).

Till that happens, I prefer these Pirellis. OK, maybe slightly improved so that drivers at least try to get a single lap time in Q3.
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Old 15th May 2012, 22:31   #17
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Nice article for the Pirelli haters..
F1's dark art - Tyre feature | Formula 1 | F1 features | ESPN F1
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Old 15th May 2012, 23:24   #18
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

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Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
Just one thing - it didn't happen on the track.
Not able to understand what you are trying to imply here. Isn't the driver doing his bit on the track?

One request. Watch Monaco with Sky or BBC. They give out info/ data that ESPN Star can only dream of. And it may change your perspective with regard to F1. The racing can be enjoyable even when there aren't many wheel to wheel stuff.

How I wish for the Sky F1 telecast along with the red button services on our TVs here. Wonder why ESPN Star can't buy the Sky telecast for Asia and sack their in house team for F1. They do that for football.

Anyways, we are digressing from the main topic of discussion here. I guess refueling + a more gradual wearing Pirelli with a bigger performance window will make it apt for everyone.

As things stand now, it is a BIG lottery.
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Old 16th May 2012, 11:14   #19
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Interesting article. I liked this quote

Quote:
Just because they're black and round we've taken them for granted for too long
Bob Bell doesn't sound very critical about them.

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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
Not able to understand what you are trying to imply here. Isn't the driver doing his bit on the track?
The overtaking maneuver didn't happen on the track. That's all I have against strategy.

Yes, BBC coverage of F1 is far far better as they give a lot more info. Comparing it to Star Sports is like comparing Raja Bhoj and Gangu Teli (as the old saying goes). It does make for interesting race coverage but they have to do that as there's little action on the track (or used to be like that), and still they sold their coverage rights to Sky.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
As things stand now, it is a BIG lottery.
It's unpredictable as the team which is quick enough and gets the setup right seems to win. Else we will get to see HRT/Marussia on the podium soon.
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Old 16th May 2012, 11:54   #20
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Nice article for the Pirelli haters..
F1's dark art - Tyre feature | Formula 1 | F1 features | ESPN F1
I dont know what nice about that article ? If anything it only re affirms that the tyres are playing too big a part and simply manipulating racing. Its not the best driver + best car combination that wins a race anymore, its the car which lucks itself into the narrow range of performance of the Pirelli that wins a race.

Humidity, Track Temperature and ambient temperature are variables that are out of anyone's control. These factors are playing a big part in deciding which setup works the tyres in the best way. This is why its a complete lottery and making the sport a joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
Not able to understand what you are trying to imply here. Isn't the driver doing his bit on the track?

One request. Watch Monaco with Sky or BBC. They give out info/ data that ESPN Star can only dream of. And it may change your perspective with regard to F1. The racing can be enjoyable even when there aren't many wheel to wheel stuff.

How I wish for the Sky F1 telecast along with the red button services on our TVs here. Wonder why ESPN Star can't buy the Sky telecast for Asia and sack their in house team for F1. They do that for football.

Anyways, we are digressing from the main topic of discussion here. I guess refueling + a more gradual wearing Pirelli with a bigger performance window will make it apt for everyone.

As things stand now, it is a BIG lottery.
Completely agree. I dont see what is exciting about the hundreds of overtakes these days. Most of them are either DRS enabled (NFS anyone ?) or are due to rapidly degrading tyres which prevents the driver in front from putting any sort of decent defence against an attacker.

In earlier days, the overtakes were much lesser, but they were much more valuable. Drivers had to earn their overtakes, the guy in front was capable of mounting superb defense. The whole act of an overtake was really beautiful to watch. It was like a super high speed game of chess when we got to see what the drivers were actually doing, busting their nuts for each place on the track. Now its just push a button and storm your way through the guy in front.

Its too bad that the art of overtaking and the skill involved in defending a place with a slower car was never noticed by a lot of people here. (I blame Steve Slater )

Its a skill that will be lost on this entire generation of fans who start watching the sport now. Not to mention the drivers, who will turn into little crybabies when they are not able get past another with one move.

If you really want so much action, its best to switch to NASCAR. No offence meant.

F1 has never ever been about ridiculously high amounts of overtaking. This is the first ever time it has happened in the history of the sport. Its the ruining of a great legacy.
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Old 16th May 2012, 15:55   #21
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

More criticism of the Pirellis by almost all top drivers. I think this should open a few eyes :

F1, Formula 1 news - Unpredictable F1 became 'strange' in Spain - Alonso | Nextgen-Auto.com

Quote:
Some of the results that we saw this weekend feel very strange," said Ferrariís Alonso.

"At one race one team is there (at the front) and then suddenly they are tenth in the next race, so itís bit of an odd situation," agreed the 2007 world champion Kimi Raikkonen, who finished behind Alonso in his Lotus on Sunday.
.
.
.
.
"With seven laps to go I got to a curve and suddenly the grip was gone. I even radioed the box to see if the car had been damaged," said Alonso.
.
.
.
Some think the magic recipe is the ability to look after tyres, but in Spain arguably F1ís best driver at tyre management - Jenson Button - was lost.
"I work hard at it," the Briton is quoted as saying, referring to his famous driving style, "but right now itís not working and I have no idea why."
.

.

Shanghai winner Nico Rosberg added: "Two races ago we were at the top and now everything is changed. Whatís up with formula one?" he is quoted as saying in German-language reports.
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Old 16th May 2012, 16:47   #22
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

This criticism is getting boring, frankly. It's not the tires they are worried about. It's the increasing competition (from smaller teams) they are worried about.

Had the big guys been winning all the races, I can bet there would have been nothing strange about it.

And F1 was never about overtaking just on strategies either. Yes, an overtake needs to be earned but it should not be heavily stacked in favour of the driver who is defending. Even in Barcelona, most of the overtakes happened in the DRS zone only when the driver behind was clearly faster. That's how difficult it is to overtake in modern F1 - aka - a 300kmph procession.
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Old 16th May 2012, 17:49   #23
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

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Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
This criticism is getting boring, frankly. It's not the tires they are worried about. It's the increasing competition (from smaller teams) they are worried about.

Had the big guys been winning all the races, I can bet there would have been nothing strange about it.

And F1 was never about overtaking just on strategies either. Yes, an overtake needs to be earned but it should not be heavily stacked in favour of the driver who is defending. Even in Barcelona, most of the overtakes happened in the DRS zone only when the driver behind was clearly faster. That's how difficult it is to overtake in modern F1 - aka - a 300kmph procession.
All the top drivers in the sport are now, directly or indirectly, going public with the view that the tyres are too sensitive, and you put this down to the fact that they arent winning ? Where did you get this from ?

If the "big" guys were winning all the races as they rightly should be since normally the "big" guys do come up with the best cars and the best drivers, how is it wrong in anyway ? Are we trying to establish a subsidy for the smaller, poorer teams so that they can compete with more talented drivers and better engineered cars. Lets just rebrand this "communist F1" or something then.


First it was Schumacher who was complaining apparently because he wasnt winning. Now all of them are complaining ? Really ?

Here are some more quotes I found in the Autosport forum:
Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/1...n?newsfeed=true

Button: "I think we're struggling in terms of pace and I'm definitely struggling in terms of finding a balance with the car. We haven't had the pace in the last two races. In reality we don't understand the tyres. We still have a good car and I think the next race we could be quick again.

"But we won't understand why we are quick. We might pretend to but we won't understand. And I'm sure Williams don't understand why they just won the race here."

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Vettel-...rder,41906.html

The situation has split the F1 audience, with the purists shaking their heads, and others marvelling at the unprecedented spectacle. Alonso, who is the joint championship leader, is in the purists’ camp.

"Of course it is attractive for the spectators that we are going to Monaco not knowing if we will fight for victory or be left out of the points," he is quoted by El Pais.

"But in a way, after eleven years in formula one and now I’m at Ferrari, I would like to have more stability," the Spaniard admitted.

(...)

"What’s happening," said Maldonado’s race engineer Xevi Pujolar, "is that these tyres are allowing teams who do not have the biggest budgets to be eligible for really good results.

"The reason is that the most important thing now is to have a good setup and also some luck with the temperature."
Also, do read another very interesting article from Mark Huges on this subject http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/7755979/Confusion-reigns-in-Spain

[Although looking at your previous posts on this subject I doubt any amount of evidence presented to you will change your mind ]

Last edited by PuntoMania : 16th May 2012 at 17:54.
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Old 16th May 2012, 18:15   #24
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
All the top drivers in the sport are now, directly or indirectly, going public with the view that the tyres are too sensitive, and you put this down to the fact that they arent winning ? Where did you get this from ?
They were against RRA and ban of in season testing. RRA had to be watered down to satisfy demands from big teams.

Plus it's human nature. Sniffle out competition before it bites them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
If the "big" guys were winning all the races as they rightly should be since normally the "big" guys do come up with the best cars and the best drivers, how is it wrong in anyway ? Are we trying to establish a subsidy for the smaller, poorer teams so that they can compete with more talented drivers and better engineered cars. Lets just rebrand this "communist F1" or something then.
How is it communist? Are the taking something away from the big teams and giving it to the smaller ones? They all have same tyres, don't they?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
First it was Schumacher who was complaining apparently because he wasnt winning. Now all of them are complaining ? Really ?

Here are some more quotes I found in the Autosport forum:
Also, do read another very interesting article from Mark Huges on this subject http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/7755979/Confusion-reigns-in-Spain

[Although looking at your previous posts on this subject I doubt any amount of evidence presented to you will change your mind ]
There have been articles posted here quoting Gary Anderson (who was at one time a TD of an F1 team - Jordan I think) how MS had the advantage of special tires which he doesn't have any more. I presented evidence about my line of thinking.

Here's another one, from a qualified journalist this time -

Brazilians under the spotlight ę

Quoting him-
Quote:
I would say, for example, that Michael Schumacher needs to have a good look at himself and ask difficult questions, rather than saying that the tyres are not good and that Bruno Senna was to blame for the accident between them in Barcelona.
Yes, tires are a problem. They could be less sensitive and more durable but they are the same for everyone. If they consider themselves a top team with top drivers - get over the problem.

And how is Button supposed to know what Williams does or does not know, when he himself doesn't know why he was so slow, when his team-mate was on pole?

And, btw, since I follow Williams, I do know for a fact that this season, Williams has been easy on the tires since the beginning. They generally have had a very good race (except in Bahrain) pace but average qualifying pace until Spain.
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Old 16th May 2012, 19:15   #25
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

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Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
Here's another one, from a qualified journalist this time -

Brazilians under the spotlight ę

Quoting him-
Who is Joe Saward!?

What makes you call him a Qualified Journo!?

Does he have any experience with F1 cars!?

Whats his reputation on understanding the technicals of an F1 car!?

How does he compare to Scarbs!?

He writes sensational articles in F1 and thats about it!

The drivers & engineers have started complaining about tires and why should I listen to a journo writing sensational blogs and convince myself that Pirelli tires are good for F1!?
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Old 16th May 2012, 19:16   #26
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
More criticism of the Pirellis by almost all top drivers. I think this should open a few eyes :

F1, Formula 1 news - Unpredictable F1 became 'strange' in Spain - Alonso | Nextgen-Auto.com
I fall in this purists camp and I agree that the present F1 has lost that driver/car on the limit sport tag and has become more of a spectacle which is not bad but then we consider F1 as a motor sport and not a tire management race or a staged drama. Tires have become a limiting factor rather then cars/drivers. IMO that is bad for F1. If at all they want to make it spectacular, restrict the wake generated by lead car so that trailing car can follow more closely. More overtaking based on driver skill rather then falling off the cliff tires.
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Old 16th May 2012, 20:11   #27
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Think of the tyres on F1 car a concoction of chemicals and not rubber. The tyre from the great manufacture of Rally cars has all respect except here in the arena.

The tyres have solved lots of issues.

1. Refilling redundant. Lots of pit fires have become thing of past.
2. Choice of compound defined by the F1 committee. Lots of pit stops.
3. Radio saying something new. "please save tires"
4. Overtaking.
5. More ridiculous strategy to not finish n Pole but save tyres to make points in the championship.

Save tyres, I thought they were supposed to say go on full throttle, nail the guy in front, instead they say, you need to do 29 laps and save them to finish.

Irritable on all counts, I have watched the turbo charged cars spinning circles but now they would rather give away the place to gather point. It's like you are a pilot but for a cargo plane rather than a jet fighter. No offense meant but very relevant for speeds.

The criticism is due as the compounds behave differently for track temp and thus lot of teams have either degradation at an incalculable point thus leading to a lot of chaos. F1 was supposed to bring thrills not a promise of fast orchestra.

Pirelli are playing an orchestra with different teams managing to play the notes at different times.

With respect to small teams and big teams the spending cap has leveled the field and should not bother anyone. Massa with a Ferrari is slower than a low key Lotus driver or even a Williams.
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Old 16th May 2012, 20:18   #28
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

For me this is the present state of F1. A tire management race. Sooner the FIA learns, the better.
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Old 16th May 2012, 20:30   #29
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Who is Joe Saward!?

What makes you call him a Qualified Journo!?

Does he have any experience with F1 cars!?

Whats his reputation on understanding the technicals of an F1 car!?

How does he compare to Scarbs!?

He writes sensational articles in F1 and thats about it!

The drivers & engineers have started complaining about tires and why should I listen to a journo writing sensational blogs and convince myself that Pirelli tires are good for F1!?
You have just fired all the reviewers who haven't built/made what they are reviewing. So I guess, we can't mention an opinion of anyone who's not been a F1 driver/engineer.

BTW, Gary Anderson said something similar in his Bahrain GP review (I think). At least he ticks most of your criteria.

These tyres are new to everyone and thus, the difficulty in understanding them. As season progresses, they will understand more and complain less. Till then... enjoy or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn1p3r View Post
Save tyres, I thought they were supposed to say go on full throttle, nail the guy in front, instead they say, you need to do 29 laps and save them to finish.
Did you hear Ferrari's radio message to Alonso to use "push to pass" to overtake Maldonado during this chase? I assume, that meant he could use more revs to overtake. They get 8 engines for 20 races. They are saving engines, gearboxes and maybe something else and are never on the limit - Pirellis or not. I agree, tires are the biggest concern at the moment but they are not going flat out. Probably haven't done that since the rule that engine has to last 2 races.

Quote:
With respect to small teams and big teams the spending cap has leveled the field and should not bother anyone.
As far as I remember, RRA was regarding limiting testing, wind tunnel usage amongst others but not a budget cap (though it reduces spending). According to reports, Ferrari/Mclaren/Mercedes still spend at least 3 times more than Sauber/Williams/Caterham. Again, they are just reports from no-ones. Not insiders or accounting firms.

Last edited by asr245 : 16th May 2012 at 20:45.
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Old 17th May 2012, 08:00   #30
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Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

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You have just fired all the reviewers who haven't built/made what they are reviewing. So I guess, we can't mention an opinion of anyone who's not been a F1 driver/engineer.
You dint get my question mate!

When drivers or engineers say something about the tires, you should listen to them rather than a man earning his living by copying already existing articles and making them sensational on his blog.

Browse through Joe Sawards blog, pick one topic that topic thats about the technicals of an F1 car (if he has ever written one) compare that to one of the topics of ScarbsF1. You will know the difference. Joe Saward writes a lot of rubbish and please dont quote them just because he supports your way of thinking!

Quote:
BTW, Gary Anderson said something similar in his Bahrain GP review (I think). At least he ticks most of your criteria.
Please quote the article here if its there, last time I heard him on Star Sports he was mentioning about the race being unpredictable because of the Pirellis.

Quote:
These tyres are new to everyone and thus, the difficulty in understanding them. As season progresses, they will understand more and complain less. Till then... enjoy or not.
Nothing is new to engineers or drivers in F1 for a long time! If there is consistent performance from Pirelli, the engineers would have cracked it already. The Pirellis are so peaky and inconsistent making life difficult for everyone in F1 and the whole show has become a lottery!

Quote:
Did you hear Ferrari's radio message to Alonso to use "push to pass" to overtake Maldonado during this chase? I assume, that meant he could use more revs to overtake. They get 8 engines for 20 races. They are saving engines, gearboxes and maybe something else and are never on the limit - Pirellis or not. I agree, tires are the biggest concern at the moment but they are not going flat out. Probably haven't done that since the rule that engine has to last 2 races.
The way the drivers are going conservative with the Pirelli, F1 doesnt require 8 engines for 20 races at all! Did you also see how his pace dropped off when he started pushing for couple of laps!?
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