Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > Motor-Sports > Int'l Motorsport


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 17th May 2012, 08:38   #31
Senior - BHPian
 
asr245's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 1,134
Thanked: 351 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Browse through Joe Sawards blog, pick one topic that topic thats about the technicals of an F1 car (if he has ever written one) compare that to one of the topics of ScarbsF1. You will know the difference. Joe Saward writes a lot of rubbish and please dont quote them just because he supports your way of thinking!
Strange, I post a blog by Andrew Benson - it turns out he is crap. I post something from Joe Saward's blog - turns out he's crap too. I just hope Gary Anderson is not crap either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Please quote the article here if its there, last time I heard him on Star Sports he was mentioning about the race being unpredictable because of the Pirellis.
It's been posted a few times on the Bahrain GP thread (I think). But here's it again for your reference. Make what you want to make of it.

BBC Sport - Bahrain GP 2012: Gary Anderson on Kimi Raikkonen's display

I am sick of this argument too. We will talk after Pirelli's have changed or engineers/drivers have figured out how to deal with the tires. Whichever route they take, I just hope it doesn't turn into a 300kmph procession again with all the action around pit-stops.
asr245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2012, 08:42   #32
BHPian
 
Newpunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 640
Thanked: 40 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
Did you hear Ferrari's radio message to Alonso to use "push to pass" to overtake Maldonado during this chase? I assume, that meant he could use more revs to overtake. They get 8 engines for 20 races. They are saving engines, gearboxes and maybe something else and are never on the limit - Pirellis or not. I agree, tires are the biggest concern at the moment but they are not going flat out. Probably haven't done that since the rule that engine has to last 2 races.
This is not related to the topic on hand, but the "Push to Pass" message was related to the fuel mixture. Alonso had saved enough fuel while using the tow behind Maldonado so that he could use a richer fuel mixture to overtake. Engine reliability is not much of an issue these days as the engines designs have been frozen for a long time now. It is very rare for an engine to have reliability issues these days. Besides, they are rev limited to 18K rpm anyway, so they cannot push further than that even if they try.

Regarding the topic on hand, although I like that Pirelli have made F1 more competitive, I think we could have a happy middle ground between the extremes of the Bridgestone rocks and the Pirelli marbles.
Newpunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2012, 08:54   #33
Senior - BHPian
 
asr245's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 1,134
Thanked: 351 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newpunter View Post
This is not related to the topic on hand, but the "Push to Pass" message was related to the fuel mixture. Alonso had saved enough fuel while using the tow behind Maldonado so that he could use a richer fuel mixture to overtake. Engine reliability is not much of an issue these days as the engines designs have been frozen for a long time now. It is very rare for an engine to have reliability issues these days. Besides, they are rev limited to 18K rpm anyway, so they cannot push further than that even if they try.
I think during the race they dont even rev it to 18K all the time. Again, no proof to back it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newpunter View Post
Regarding the topic on hand, although I like that Pirelli have made F1 more competitive, I think we could have a happy middle ground between the extremes of the Bridgestone rocks and the Pirelli marbles.
I will agree to that but after a few months. I want engineers to work at it for a few more months. Like Bob Bell said

Quote:
"Tyres are a very complex thing and there's a very complex chemistry involved in producing a racing tyre," Mercedes technical director Bob Bell explains. "Just because they're black and round we've taken them for granted for too long, but there's some very clever chemistry in getting them right for racing purposes and it's entirely possible within those boundaries that you can produce a tyre that requires a lot of understanding to get the best out of it."
Just for clarity - he was quoted in this article here

BBC - Andrew Benson: Fresh questions over struggling Schumacher

Now since Andrew Benson is supposed to be crap, I hope he hasn't put those words into Bob Bell's mouth.
asr245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2012, 10:05   #34
Senior - BHPian
 
Sn1p3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,036
Thanked: 223 Times
Default

If a race engineer has to say Push to Pass then I hope you can imagine what the drivers fear for. A racing driver needs to be on the limit professional but if someone has to tell him he is not doing enough that means something is really wrong. They said it to Massa too. Maybe that's another Ferrari straight talk

However, I was impressed as Hamilton pushed his first soft option tyres. Later he was told to conserve the wheels for 29 laps, yeah right he will do it. Thus he wasn't able to go past where he finished. This is no racing its a circus governed by unfathomable calculations. A car that was quickest didnot find podium rather the car that was strategically placed won.

Strategy looks good only if race is in purist form not that the race is only governed by calculations.
Sn1p3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2012, 10:10   #35
BHPian
 
PuntoMania's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Pune
Posts: 211
Thanked: 219 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

I cant see where Bob Bell says anything positive about the tyres in that article about the tyres. All he says is that it is possible to understand the tyres better given some time.

-He does not address the question of degradation
-He does not address the question of temperature sensitivity of the tyres affecting different cars

Basically, he is answering a question with regards to understanding of the tyres.

Asr's stand on this is very weak. He prefers to listen to journalists rather than the racing drivers themselves. And not just one or two racing drivers, nearly all the top dogs in the sport. Apparently all of them complaining in unison is also not proof enough. Lets listen to the others who dont come within a 100 metres of an F1 car, probably they are much more 'truthful'

On a side note, Fernando Alonso goes from being 1 minute down on Red Bull to 1 minute up on them in one race. He himself does not understand where Ferrari suddenly gained 2 minutes over Red Bull .



PS : The article posted about Schumacher is frankly nonsense. . He has only been genuinely outpaced at one race this season out of 5, in China( this too is a conclusion based on his first stint in the race). Without all the misfortune, he'd be right up there with the leaders this season. Anyone that cant see this and saying Schumacher has been bad this season is unfortunately just bashing to get some cheap thrills.
PuntoMania is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2012, 10:56   #36
Senior - BHPian
 
asr245's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 1,134
Thanked: 351 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
I cant see where Bob Bell says anything positive about the tyres in that article about the tyres. All he says is that it is possible to understand the tyres better given some time.

-He does not address the question of degradation
-He does not address the question of temperature sensitivity of the tyres affecting different cars

Basically, he is answering a question with regards to understanding of the tyres.

Asr's stand on this is very weak. He prefers to listen to journalists rather than the racing drivers themselves. And not just one or two racing drivers, nearly all the top dogs in the sport. Apparently all of them complaining in unison is also not proof enough. Lets listen to the others who dont come within a 100 metres of an F1 car, probably they are much more 'truthful'

On a side note, Fernando Alonso goes from being 1 minute down on Red Bull to 1 minute up on them in one race. He himself does not understand where Ferrari suddenly gained 2 minutes over Red Bull .



PS : The article posted about Schumacher is frankly nonsense. . He has only been genuinely outpaced at one race this season out of 5, in China( this too is a conclusion based on his first stint in the race). Without all the misfortune, he'd be right up there with the leaders this season. Anyone that cant see this and saying Schumacher has been bad this season is unfortunately just bashing to get some cheap thrills.
Bob Bell gave a generic answer. He says it's possible to get more out of tyres given some time. I am assuming it's possible they will understand what they can do to get more and yet not degrade the tires. And this time I am not quoting a journalist. I am quoting the TD of one of the "big boys" of F1 (though frankly for the money they spend, their results are the worst). Or do you think it's impossible to go fast and yet not degrade the Pirellis they have now? The way I understand it is - they hadn't given enough time to tires as they assumed it would be the usual run of the mill F1 tire. They probably were all focused on aerodynamics of the car.

Tire compounds are totally new to all the teams and thus they are struggling to get the best out of them. I am not saying racing drivers are wrong about it. I am saying that they complain because they fear more competition (which is quite evident). The edge they had in aerodynamics is being negated by the tires. Naturally they will complain.

Regarding MS, he was outpaced in China (the one place where Mercedes had pace) and Rosberg was ahead in qualifying and in the race when he barged into the back of Senna. That's two. Then, he was given a penalty by the stewards, who have all the information they need in this world to make this sort of decision, and yet you say it was a racing incident. He was penalized for a similar accident in S'pore 2011. Who's argument is on weak ground now? Like Senna said, when was the last time MS admitted his mistake. If you ask MS, he would claim he wasn't at fault at Monaco 2006 or Jerez 97 or Aus 94!!! Or do you also think he wasn't at fault there?

Either way, this was my closing argument. You can agree/disagree with it. But you are not going to change it with your arguments. Over the course of time, I may or may not change it on my own.

Have fun talking criticizing Pirellis!

Last edited by asr245 : 17th May 2012 at 11:24.
asr245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2012, 11:56   #37
Senior - BHPian
 
anachronix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madras
Posts: 3,233
Thanked: 1,221 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
Strange, I post a blog by Andrew Benson - it turns out he is crap. I post something from Joe Saward's blog - turns out he's crap too. I just hope Gary Anderson is not crap either.
Strange, yes! There are journos who write quality articles and blogs, do read their articles and you will never find anything strange. James Allen is one of them, Scarbs another who makes it easy for a layman to understand the technologies in F1.

But leave out the Journos. Listen to the folks who race, they are saying the Pirellis are inconsistent.

Quote:
It's been posted a few times on the Bahrain GP thread (I think). But here's it again for your reference. Make what you want to make of it.

BBC Sport - Bahrain GP 2012: Gary Anderson on Kimi Raikkonen's display

I am sick of this argument too. We will talk after Pirelli's have changed or engineers/drivers have figured out how to deal with the tires. Whichever route they take, I just hope it doesn't turn into a 300kmph procession again with all the action around pit-stops.
I am waiting for the best car + best driver to win rather than a tire manufacturer decide who wins the race
anachronix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2012, 15:54   #38
BHPian
 
polopm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Chennai
Posts: 438
Thanked: 120 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Strange, yes! There are journos who write quality articles and blogs, do read their articles and you will never find anything strange. James Allen is one of them, Scarbs another who makes it easy for a layman to understand the technologies in F1.

But leave out the Journos. Listen to the folks who race, they are saying the Pirellis are inconsistent.



I am waiting for the best car + best driver to win rather than a tire manufacturer decide who wins the race
Fully agree ! The whole year it is going to be folks who can fire on lesser cylinders and still win. Its like watching the entire circus run on simulator mode and the connect is missing.

Probably they might be looking at alternating drivers in the middle of the race or swapping cars within the team. Then everyone will be talking of how to get a neutral setup which any driver will get used to. Probably it might happen that Fernando starts going slower when he starts driving Felipe's car midway (or he might just go faster, you know !)

I think we need to start a thread which Mr.E can infer to make the next year more fun. Options are:
1. Chicane cutting (Mr. E's idea)
2. Artificial Rain (same as above)
3. Swapping drivers
4. Swapping cars between two drivers
5. 3 cars per team ( Luca will be happy)
6. Any others - please fill in.

Bring back the rules which where there few years back. Those times there were only few drivers who were really good. That's not the case now. For the sake of entertainment, lets not crap the shoes of the car.
polopm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 10:09   #39
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 134
Thanked: 22 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

I feel that with the advent of single tyre manufacturer in vogue in the current season, F1 has become exciting and fun to watch. Given that we had 5 races and 5 different winners makes it unpredictable. Everyone was bored of watching the RB dominate the last 2 seasons. It reminded me of the days of Michael Schumacher who used to win the championship with 2-3 races to spare. The onus will lie on teams to make their cars efficient and manage tyres better. All in all I like the current season with single tyre manufacturer. This season has all the bearings of a cracker.
sparsh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 11:35   #40
Senior - BHPian
 
Sn1p3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,036
Thanked: 223 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparsh
I feel that with the advent of single tyre manufacturer in vogue in the current season, F1 has become exciting and fun to watch. Given that we had 5 races and 5 different winners makes it unpredictable. Everyone was bored of watching the RB dominate the last 2 seasons. It reminded me of the days of Michael Schumacher who used to win the championship with 2-3 races to spare. The onus will lie on teams to make their cars efficient and manage tyres better. All in all I like the current season with single tyre manufacturer. This season has all the bearings of a cracker.
While no one is complaining about the excitement we are discussing how the same tyre is unpredictable (due to pesky performance and sensitive to ambient temperatures) beyond control of the drivers.

It's a lucky draw of sorts right now.
Sn1p3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 11:52   #41
BHPian
 
PrideRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BLR/PTR
Posts: 741
Thanked: 1,031 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

The new Pirelli's have ruled out the tire advantage as all teams use same. But now the teams need to work more on the strategies. And the drivers have one more critical thing to cope up with rather than focusing on their driving skills. Agree that tire management is part of driving skill, but are the tire supposed to wear out so fast?

Ssome things i dont understand from the tire perspective.
1.All over the track one can find a lot of chunks of rubber. Is the Pirelli so soft that it wears out fast?Even the so called hard compound tire wears out pretty fast.
2.If yes is that intentionally done so that there are frequent tire changes?
PrideRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 15:14   #42
BHPian
 
SilentEngine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mangalore-Bangalore
Posts: 916
Thanked: 108 Times
Default

Kimi Raikkonen doesn't quite agree with blaming Pirelli for everything. This inspite of paying biggest price in China.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99647
SilentEngine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 17:04   #43
BHPian
 
drkakkilaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mandya
Posts: 109
Thanked: 243 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Kimi s statement to Autosport is quite dumb. Seriously , think of this - in catalunya maldonado and alonso came out of their final pitstop is equivalent to one stint on fresh tyres and and just enough fuel for the final stint again which is equivalent to one stint of refuled car, now why is that alonso attacks for exactly 4 laps and then falls back. its because he knows he ll end up loosing a place to kimi. in other words even on refuling system the tyres will degrade after pushing 2-3 laps.

same happened to kimi when he was chasing vettle, he gave up after 2-3 laps as his NEW TYRES would not hold even with FUEL REMAINING FOR FINAL STINT ( lighter car ).
Kimi is good only in a great car , he did not even bother to improve of outperform his car in his final stint in ferrari. Everyone known what happens when he opens his mouth..blurbglugglugblurbbb is all u hear.
drkakkilaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 17:33   #44
BHPian
 
drkakkilaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mandya
Posts: 109
Thanked: 243 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

DONT BLAME PIRELLI , BLAME FIA.
pirelli have the abiltiy to control tyre degradation better than any of the companies present. if FIA asks them they ll do a tyre that can last an entire season ha ha.. they are just doing what fia have asked them to do. If FIA asks them to do a tyre that lasts a stint without degrading they will do it. Blaming pirelli will just give them a wrong publicity which they dont deserve, rather pat them on their back for their ability to do exactly what FIA have asked them of.

Its sad that only one man had guts to openly tell tyres are playing too much of a role.... Michael schumacher.

Since these tyres have come the only overtakings are when the other persons tyres are degrading , or DRS assisted. what show improves by artificiality, drivers need the skill to manage their tyres but not to the extent that u tiptoe across the field .

i rather see 2 or 3 overtakings with flat out racing than 50 odd artificial ones while tiptoing across.

gone are the days of Hungary 98 , france 2004 , indianapolis 2001 , etc etc..
drkakkilaya is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2012, 17:40   #45
BHPian
 
SilentEngine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mangalore-Bangalore
Posts: 916
Thanked: 108 Times
Default Re: F1-2012: How many times did you hear that 'Tire Management' is critical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drkakkilaya View Post
Kimi s statement to Autosport is quite dumb. Seriously , think of this - in catalunya maldonado and alonso came out of their final pitstop is equivalent to one stint on fresh tyres and and just enough fuel for the final stint again which is equivalent to one stint of refuled car, now why is that alonso attacks for exactly 4 laps and then falls back. its because he knows he ll end up loosing a place to kimi. in other words even on refuling system the tyres will degrade after pushing 2-3 laps.
How is it dumb? All he is saying is don't single out Pirelli tyres and that refueling ban has also contributed to the uncertainty. He is a WDC and his opinion at least merits some thought. For one, i would assume running with heavier fuel requires setting up car differently which increases tyre wear in the first part of the race.
Also, Alonso didn't come out with fresh tyres in the final stint. He was on a used set. Maldonado and Raikkonen both had new sets for final stint, so Alonso was already at a disadvantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drkakkilaya View Post
Kimi is good only in a great car , he did not even bother to improve of outperform his car in his final stint in ferrari. Everyone known what happens when he opens his mouth..blurbglugglugblurbbb is all u hear.
How is this relevant to this topic? Seriously, either you didn't watch 2009 F1 season or you don't know what outperforming is. If winning at Spa and scoring series of podiums with a dog that Ferrari gave him is not outperforming, then i don't know what is.
SilentEngine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore Simple_car Technical Stuff 23 23rd August 2013 15:04
How did you hear about team-bhp ? adityapd Shifting gears 354 11th February 2012 08:04
Can you hear your FFE pop ? chetanhanda Modifications & Accessories 20 18th July 2011 15:18
Why rim size is as critical as tire pressures or tire sizes !! speedsatya Tyre & Alloy wheel Section 23 12th July 2011 18:00


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 09:19.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks