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Old 16th October 2012, 15:14   #76
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Agreed! But since Ferrari is a team which does to believe in equal treatment for both drivers, this setup (with Massa) suits them better. I am happy that Michael did not make/get a move to Ferrari. It would have been an insult for him (or for Vettel) to act on messages like ‘You're a bit too close to Fernando’.
They do favor one driver over the other, but the first condition is that one driver who will be given No.1 status has to be better than his teammate in terms of results and driving. If Massa manages to beat Alonso consistently till the halfway stage of any season, he will be given the No.1 status. This philosophy is quite clearly proved in the 2008 season, when the World Champion Kimi Raikkonen was given a no. 2 role once Massa had a sufficient lead over Raikkonen in the championship, which was completely opposite of the 2007 season when the Finn was favored.

There is a major difference between saying "Ferrari does not believe in equal treatment" (which implies some sort of unethical conduct) And "Ferrari chooses its no.1 based on performances during a season" (which is a perfectly reasonable and professional point of view)



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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Bridgestone were a large contributor to Shumi/Ferrari success with custom made tires. That era is long gone and the FIA will never allow it again.
Ferrari were the only top team left with Bridgestone tyres in 2002 after Mclaren, Williams and BAR signed up for Michelin, so Bridgestone had no option but to set up shop in Ferrari. The amount of data that Michelin had on their hands, with inputs from multiple teams was far greater than what Bridgestone had to work with when they were left with Ferrari and a few midfield and backmarker teams.

So to say that a large part of Ferrari and Schumacher's success is down to Bridgestone is a bit an exaggeration.

In the same way, one can easily say that Alonso's two World Championships in 2005 and 2006 were solely dependent on a very special set of regulations which favored Renault's chasis and the other Michelin runners, and were aimed at destroying the Bridgestone domination + it favored Alonso's driving style. Such a situation will also never (hopefully) be allowed by the FIA, when it had to change the rules because one team and its driver was too good for the rest of the grid, so it had to bring the top dogs down so that there is a level playing field for the rest of the teams.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle my friend.

Last edited by PuntoMania : 16th October 2012 at 15:17.
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Old 16th October 2012, 17:23   #77
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Default Re: Hulkenberg set to join Sauber for 2013

Hulkenberg has performed very well this year in Force India. He has definitely got the better of Di Resta this year, and has consistenly racked up good finishes. Whats more, he rarely makes any mistakes neither does he go out of his way to create accidents like Maldonado, Grosjean, Senna in F1. Among the young prospects in F1, I think Hulkenberg is right up there, in my books even slightly better than Perez due to his superior consistency and really good race pace.

We'd do well to remember that Nico has had a very impressive run through lower series like GP2, A1 etc before he got his shot at F1.

Sauber seems more like a lateral move than a step up from Force India, however with Vijay Mallya's troubles having no end, perhaps he thinks its safer to be in Sauber anticipating some sort of dip in form for the Force India team. Also, Sauber has promised to have an even better car next year from this year. At the moment, Sauber is fighting for 5th in the constructors with Mercedes and looks set to overhaul the Brackley based outfit before the end of the year.

Knowing how Sauber is usually a stepping stone to the bigger teams, I think Hulkenberg and Sauber will make a good team.

Esteban Gutierrez on the other hand, will bring with him a lot of Latin money, which will no doubt be lost otherwise with the exit of Perez. I am not so sure about him as he hasnt had a very distinctive run through the ranks this year, and has been matched in GP2 by his teammate who is in his very first season. It remains to be seen how he will perform in an F1 car.
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Old 16th October 2012, 18:31   #78
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

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Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
Ferrari were the only top team left with Bridgestone tyres in 2002 after Mclaren, Williams and BAR signed up for Michelin, so Bridgestone had no option but to set up shop in Ferrari. The amount of data that Michelin had on their hands, with inputs from multiple teams was far greater than what Bridgestone had to work with when they were left with Ferrari and a few midfield and backmarker teams.

So to say that a large part of Ferrari and Schumacher's success is down to Bridgestone is a bit an exaggeration.

In the same way, one can easily say that Alonso's two World Championships in 2005 and 2006 were solely dependent on a very special set of regulations which favored Renault's chasis and the other Michelin runners, and were aimed at destroying the Bridgestone domination + it favored Alonso's driving style. Such a situation will also never (hopefully) be allowed by the FIA, when it had to change the rules because one team and its driver was too good for the rest of the grid, so it had to bring the top dogs down so that there is a level playing field for the rest of the teams.

The truth is always somewhere in the middle my friend.
Michelin had only returned to F1 in 2001 with barely any relevant data available to them.
Ferrari have always been with Bridgestone, with barely any testing regulations in place (Only team with a private test track as well), it was VERY FAVOURABLE for a perfect car to tire fit. As you mention Ferrari were the only top team and most of the testing was done by them therefore it was obvious that tires were designed with Ferrari in mind.

Dont see logic in your arguments on 2005/2006. In 2005, Mclaren finished just 10 points behind Renault in the Constructors, why would Michelin design a tire only for Renault?

The other piece of evidence is Shumi taking so long to adjust to the tires. Do note that raw speed was not the problem. He also did not lack the 'feel' as he was very quick in the wet.
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Old 16th October 2012, 21:46   #79
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In 2010 Massa scored 57% of Alonso's points. In 2011, 45% and 2012 38% (at present).

Ferrari has signed Massa for 2013.

Last edited by sa_kiran : 16th October 2012 at 21:48.
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Old 16th October 2012, 22:01   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania
There is a major difference between saying "Ferrari does not believe in equal treatment" (which implies some sort of unethical conduct) And "Ferrari chooses its no.1 based on performances during a season" (which is a perfectly reasonable and professional point of view).
I am not commenting that the way they operate is right or wrong. Unlike some of the other competitors they don't like their two drivers to go aggressive on each other on the track. In such a scenario it maybe difficult for two headstrong drivers to co-exist (say Alonso/Vettel or Alonso/Hamilton).

Whether team orders are ethical or not is debatable.

Anyways, Massa signed a one year extension with Ferrari. So they have an unchanged lineup for 2013
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Old 16th October 2012, 22:56   #81
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Michelin had only returned to F1 in 2001 with barely any relevant data available to them.
Ferrari have always been with Bridgestone, with barely any testing regulations in place (Only team with a private test track as well), it was VERY FAVOURABLE for a perfect car to tire fit. As you mention Ferrari were the only top team and most of the testing was done by them therefore it was obvious that tires were designed with Ferrari in mind.
This is terribly OT, but a lot of what you've written is very wrong.

1. Ferrari have not "always" been with Bridgestone by a long shot. They signed up with Bridgestone in 1999 after the exit of Goodyear from the sport. From 1999 to 2001 BS were the sole tyre suppliers for all teams which meant no one team had an advantage anyway.

2. As I mentioned before, after all the major teams bar Ferrari signed up for Michelin in 2002 (not in 2000 and 2001), Bridgestone were left with no choice but to rely on Ferrari's sole input for developing their tyres. In comparison, Michelin had inputs from many other top teams which meant that for Bridgestone to remain competitive, they had to have closer co-operation with Ferrari.

So, in the 2000 & 2001 seasons Ferrari did not enjoy any advantage at all w.r.t. Bridgestone tyres. In 2002, BS was just starting to increase its co-operation with Ferrari and in 2003 the rules were tweaked once again to take away any advantage Ferrari may have had. Michelin had bought an illegal tyre for a third of the season and enjoyed a distinct performance advantage for much of the season in dry races even without the illegal advantage. Please look up and check the season reviews for this season as I doubt you've watched this season well.

Basically in 2000, 2001 and 2003 (3 out of the 5 golden years at Ferrari) there is crystal clear evidence of Ferrari having no special advantage of having Bridgestone as a tyre supplier, which pretty much nullifies this internet myth that a lot of Ferrari's success is down to its tyre supplier. It was not, it was due to the relentless efforts of the super team and the abilities of a legend of F1 at his absolute peak. Belittling and simplifying the success is just plain wrong.

3. Mclaren did not have a private test track, but their testing mileage was comparable to Ferrari. So this is also a weak internet myth looked down as an excuse to explain away MS and Ferrari's successes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Dont see logic in your arguments on 2005/2006. In 2005, Mclaren finished just 10 points behind Renault in the Constructors, why would Michelin design a tire only for Renault?
I did not write Michelin made a tyre exclusively for Renault. Re-read what I wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
The other piece of evidence is Shumi taking so long to adjust to the tires. Do note that raw speed was not the problem. He also did not lack the 'feel' as he was very quick in the wet.
Schumacher has driven with Pirelli slicks in the early 90s, Goodyears, Bridgestones, grooved tyres, slicks, tested literally multiple generations of Formula 1 cars with different configurations, different rates of tyre wear, downforce etc etc etc. And he was quick in all of them.

Before even this internet myth of "Bridgestone made him faster than he is", he had already notched up some of the greatest drives in Formula 1 history in between 1993-1999. Please do a bit of research before making indictments like these. If anything, the Schumacher of pre-2002 (when these so called exclusive benefits from Bridgestone started) was even more devastating in the wet and dry alike and often in inferior machinery.
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Old 17th October 2012, 01:07   #82
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuntoMania View Post
1. Ferrari have not "always" been with Bridgestone by a long shot.
They did not shift to Michelin like Mclaren/Renault etc
Quote:
2. they had to have closer co-operation with Ferrari.
My point exactly.

Quote:
So, in the 2000 & 2001 seasons Ferrari did not enjoy any advantage at all w.r.t. Bridgestone tyres.

Basically in 2000, 2001 and 2003 (3 out of the 5 golden years at Ferrari) there is crystal clear evidence of Ferrari having no special advantage of having Bridgestone as a tyre supplier, which pretty much nullifies this internet myth that a lot of Ferrari's success is down to its tyre supplier. It was not, it was due to the relentless efforts of the super team and the abilities of a legend of F1 at his absolute peak. Belittling and simplifying the success is just plain wrong.

3. Mclaren did not have a private test track, but their testing mileage was comparable to Ferrari. So this is also a weak internet myth looked down as an excuse to explain away MS and Ferrari's successes.
In 2001, other teams shifted to Michelin only because Bridgestone were focussing too much on Ferrari!!!

Take a look at the testing done at Fiorano in 2000. It is an awful lot.
http://www.newsonf1.com/testing/2000/fiorano00.htm
Do you have data on actual testing miles covered?

Quote:
Schumacher has driven with Pirelli slicks in the early 90s, Goodyears, Bridgestones, grooved tyres, slicks, tested literally multiple generations of Formula 1 cars with different configurations, different rates of tyre wear, downforce etc etc etc. And he was quick in all of them.
Pirelli characteristics and wear is different to any of the earlier manufacturers' . This is why Shumi has always been the most vocal driver against the Pirelli's.

Coming back to topic, Massa is rewarded for finally finding some pace.

Last edited by Hatari : 17th October 2012 at 01:09.
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Old 17th October 2012, 07:40   #83
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Here's an exclusive pic of The Circuit of the Americas, Austin.

Pic taken at turn 1.

Source : Alpinestars
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Old 17th October 2012, 10:40   #84
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

That's a brilliant turn 1. Should be very interesting to see the overtaking maneuver at this turn.
Thanks for sharing. The circuit looks all set to be one of the best on the calender.
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Old 17th October 2012, 15:39   #85
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

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Originally Posted by speed kills View Post
Here's an exclusive pic of The Circuit of the Americas, Austin.

Pic taken at turn 1.

Source : Alpinestars
Solid turn 1 !
But I think we need to have it on a separate thread and not this one.

So who are on the boot list:
1. The Schum
2. Petrov
3. Kobayashi (??)

All is quiet still on Caterham and HRT - we should see some changes here. Marussia might be changeless. Sauber anyone ?
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Old 17th October 2012, 17:56   #86
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

Ferrari has bungled in keeping Massa for 2013. Massa has just 6 podiums in the last 54 races. That is just utter rubbish. He should have been kicked out a year ago. Now they may as well kiss goodbye to the constructors trophy in 2013. Perez will be eager to prove a point in the McLaren next year.
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Old 17th October 2012, 19:08   #87
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

Well, I will be hoping he can keep his current uptrend in form and get regular podiums and maybe a few wins before he goes out. At Korea, team asked him to slow down (in other words "Fernando is slower than you" :-)). In a way that should boost his morale.
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Old 19th October 2012, 13:48   #88
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

The latest update from crash.net :



Confirmed 2013 F1 drivers:

Fernando Alonso Spain Ferrari-Ferrari
(Confirmed for 2013, with options for 2014 and beyond?)
Felipe Massa Brazil Ferrari-Ferrari
(Deal expires at end of 2013)

Sebastian Vettel Germany Red Bull-Renault
(Confirmed for 2013 and 2014, but there are performance clauses)
Mark Webber Australia Red Bull-Renault
(Deal expires at end of 2013)

Jenson Button Britain McLaren-Mercedes
(Signed 'multi-year deal' in October 2011)
Sergio Perez Mexico McLaren-Mercedes
(Signed 'multi-year deal' in October 2012)

Lewis Hamilton Britain Mercedes-Mercedes
(Deal expires at end of 2015)
Nico Rosberg Germany Mercedes-Mercedes
(Signed 'multi-year deal' in November 2011)

Timo Glock Germany Marussia-Cosworth
(Signed new 'long term deal' in July 2011)

Pedro de la Rosa Spain HRT-Cosworth
(Deal expires at end of 2013)

Michael Schumacher Germany Retirement




Likely candidates for remaining seats...

Kimi Raikkonen Finland Lotus-Renault
Romain Grosjean French Lotus-Renault

Daniel Ricciardo Australia Toro Rosso-Ferrari
Jean-Eric Vergne France Toro Rosso-Ferrari

Paul di Resta Britain Force India-Mercedes
Nico Hulkenberg German Force India-Mercedes
Jules Bianchi French Force India-Mercedes

Nico Hulkenberg German Sauber-Ferrari
Esteban Gutierrez Mexico Sauber-Ferrari
Kamui Kobayashi Japan Sauber-Ferrari
Heikki Kovalainen Finland Sauber-Ferrari

Pastor Maldonado Venezuela Williams-Renault
Valtteri Bottas Finland Williams-Renault
Bruno Senna Brazil Wiliams-Renault

Charles Pic French Marussia-Cosworth
Max Chilton Britain Marussia-Cosworth

Charles Pic French Caterham-Renault
Heikki Kovalainen Finland Caterham-Renault

Narain Karthikeyan India HRT-Cosworth

Jaime Alguersuari Spain In talks with 'several midfield teams'
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Old 19th October 2012, 23:49   #89
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

To have a lighter moment, couldnt help but post this pic.
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Old 29th October 2012, 15:29   #90
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Default Re: 2012-13 Silly Season is here !!!

Well, another one confirmed. Hardly a surprise though. Nice video though.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/videos/27...otus-for-2013/
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