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Old 2nd August 2012, 16:45   #91
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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Let me rephrase
Historically he has been quick BUT he starts to drop when the car is not behaving properly

Andrea Stella's words on Kimi and Alonso :
You thought he was going to say Kimi was better than Alonso when he is Alonso's engineer? Anyone will struggle with cold tires and if they fail to heat up the tires enough. Until 2011 Ferrari had the issue with heating up tires, do google you will find more articles and you will also find articles about Chris Dyer or Jean Todt talking great things about Kimi.
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Old 2nd August 2012, 17:48   #92
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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Yes, he was beaten for unknown reasons after the FrenchGP in that season. Massa was leading Kimi before his injury, do basic points calculations until HungarianGP.
Not sure if you were asking me to do that or not, but I did anyway. I had spoken from memory earlier, but I was correct. Massa was leading Kimi by 22 to 10 uptil Hungary 2009 (and not including it). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Formula_One_season

Edit: My mistake in wording my sentence earlier. I meant what I wrote above.

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He is an average driver, he is good if the car is good! If the car is not to his liking, he goes way down the grid while the other car from his team goes for the win. This has been the trend in Button's career. Rubens was beating him all through the 2nd half of 2009. I would still call him an average driver, you can call Alonso stupid if you want
So when the car wasn't good JB was behind but when the car was good, JB won 6 of the first 7 races, while RB won none. Only goes the prove that given the right equipment, JB can win championships and Rubens can't. I have noticed that trend too but I still call him a good driver if not a bloody good one. Of course, if I was team principal, I would pick Alonso or Vettel or Kimi (pre-2008) over him.

It wasn't without reason that Mclaren extended his contract for another 2 years.

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Old 2nd August 2012, 18:43   #93
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

Button's good, but not great, that's my take on him. And in a grid full of world class drivers, good is average. If it hadn't been for the Brawn boom, he would have been sitting up on Race Day Central or somewhere else by now, retired.
Kimi, maybe because he's too distant and media shy, but people really underestimate him i.e. by his standards. He's the sorta guy who goes flat out rather than be smart, when he races he doesn't care 'bout points, position or standings, to him its win or lose. And after the result he doesn't car what the result was, he'll party. That too me is absolute professionalism.
So on a driving basis, I'd say Kimi is the best, the fastest. Am not looking for smart people on the F1 track, they belong in the engineering team.
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Old 2nd August 2012, 19:01   #94
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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You thought he was going to say Kimi was better than Alonso when he is Alonso's engineer? Anyone will struggle with cold tires and if they fail to heat up the tires enough. Until 2011 Ferrari had the issue with heating up tires, do google you will find more articles and you will also find articles about Chris Dyer or Jean Todt talking great things about Kimi.
Does he use the word fast/quick for Alonso? Only strong.
Which basically means, he's actually saying Kimi is faster than Alonso on outright pace. Cant get much clearer than this.

Drivers struggling on cold tires is OBVIOUS. The point being Kimi will struggle more than Alonso.

I believe Kimi cant drive a poorly handling car as quick as Alonso or even Hamilton. He has not been able to adjust to Lotus's power steering system, showing he is not adaptable enough.

Dont need to look for articles on current drivers since i have been watching them race through the years
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Old 2nd August 2012, 19:59   #95
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

If Kimi wasnt the best driver he wouldnt have been the highest paid driver when he quit. If I am not wrong out of the current drivers, he must have the highest number of fastest laps in the race. He must also be one of the most unlucky drivers around. I remember him leading a race and loosing his front wheel on the last lap.
He isnt great in the wet though. Alonso is the best when it comes to wet weather.
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Old 3rd August 2012, 21:06   #96
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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Yes, he was beaten for unknown reasons after the FrenchGP in that season. Massa was leading Kimi before his injury, do basic points calculations until HungarianGP.
I am stirring a hornet's nest here.

Popular but very credible opinion on forums around the world have it that at around this time, it was becoming clear that Santander+Alonso would be a reality come 2010.

At this point of time the title race between Massa and Kimi was more or less even.

The main update on the car was the front suspension which Massa found to his benefit but not to Kimi's liking. He mentioned in some interview that he asked Ferrari to change it back , but they did not listen. It got so worse that he had to call in the Robertsons to talk to Ferrari.

After that Ferrari reverted back to the old suspension and Kimi got back into reckoning for 2008, but it was too late by then.
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Old 3rd August 2012, 23:12   #97
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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I remember him leading a race and loosing his front wheel on the last lap.
Yeah that was Nurburgring 2005, I almost cried at his crash.

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it was becoming clear that Santander+Alonso would be a reality come 2010.
After that Ferrari reverted back to the old suspension and Kimi got back into reckoning for 2008, but it was too late by then.
Exactly, ever since Ferrari got the smell of the Spanish money flowing in they almost deserted Kimi.
From a company's perspective it does hurt to have someone like Kimi as your face, given his media scared attitude. With the commercial world dictating terms every one wants someone like a Hamilton or a Alonso to be their champion. We just have to accept that.
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Old 6th August 2012, 08:08   #98
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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Does he use the word fast/quick for Alonso? Only strong.
Which basically means, he's actually saying Kimi is faster than Alonso on outright pace. Cant get much clearer than this.
You can always make your own meanings out of PR talks, but its normal for a team personal to talk good about his driver. I am not saying Alonso is weak, he is a great driver... but where was Alonso in 2008 & 2009. There is still a lot about the car than the driver!

In 2008 Spa, Kimi drove the launch spec F2008 after struggling with the upgrades that Ferrari put on his car struggling to heat up his front tires. As INDIVIC posted, the Robertsons were involved to bring the old spec of the F2008 for Spa. Look at Kimi's result after Spa in 2008, he even moved over for the most overrated driver in F1 history!

And... Like you said any driver will struggle with cold tires and thats what happened in 2008. In 2008 it was all about Spanish money, Massa was and still is backed by Santander. It was all about the biggest IPO that Santander was upto in Brazil in 2008 and also the deal that Luca had already signed a deal with the Spanish bank to bring in Alonso.

Quote:
Drivers struggling on cold tires is OBVIOUS. The point being Kimi will struggle more than Alonso.

I believe Kimi cant drive a poorly handling car as quick as Alonso or even Hamilton. He has not been able to adjust to Lotus's power steering system, showing he is not adaptable enough.
Not being able to adjust!? He is 1 point less than Hamilton in the WDC hunt and 40 points more than his teammate with that so called power steering issue that Kimi is struggling with.

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Dont need to look for articles on current drivers since i have been watching them race through the years
I know
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Old 6th August 2012, 11:22   #99
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

Those who have followed Kimi's career would know that he has performed better in second half of the seasons except for 2008. Given that Lotus have one of the fastest cars this time, and Kimi himself has said he is happy with the car, it would be a mistake to rule him out. He has as much chance as Hamilton, Vettel or Webber.
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Old 6th August 2012, 11:24   #100
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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Not being able to adjust!? He is 1 point less than Hamilton in the WDC hunt and 40 points more than his teammate with that so called power steering issue that Kimi is struggling with.

He should have been leading the Championship by atleast 50 points!!!

You have completely overlooked the raw pace of the Lotus and how many points he has dropped due to poor qualifying.
On an average, he's dropped about 8 points PER RACE! Right from Australia till Hungary.
Do a study on his Quali position vs Grosjean's. You will see what I mean.

Now, I will take into consideration that he's been out of Formula 1.
But put any other World Champion into the Lotus and it is clear how much he (and team) have under performed.Comparing him to a rookie is an insult to his talent.He should have performed much better than RG at every race and qualifying session.
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Old 6th August 2012, 12:21   #101
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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He should have been leading the Championship by atleast 50 points!!!

You have completely overlooked the raw pace of the Lotus and how many points he has dropped due to poor qualifying.
On an average, he's dropped about 8 points PER RACE! Right from Australia till Hungary.
Do a study on his Quali position vs Grosjean's. You will see what I mean.

Now, I will take into consideration that he's been out of Formula 1.
But put any other World Champion into the Lotus and it is clear how much he (and team) have under performed.Comparing him to a rookie is an insult to his talent.He should have performed much better than RG at every race and qualifying session.

When it doesnt support your theory, his 40 point lead will be any good over 50 points and Romain will become a F1 rookie!?
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Old 6th August 2012, 14:28   #102
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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When it doesnt support your theory, his 40 point lead will be any good over 50 points and Romain will become a F1 rookie!?
What are you trying to say? I have no clue.

Let me try though, you are saying he has scored 40 more points than RG.
Which is good according to you.

But Romain has had 4 DNFs and one 18th place finish in 11 races. This is only his 2nd F1 season.. a rookie.
Now, to get an idea of Kimi's poor Qualifying..
this rookie has outqualified the ex WDC 8 times in 11 races.
RG's quali pace is the MINIMUM benchmark for Kimi.
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Old 6th August 2012, 14:46   #103
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

For a driver who has not driven an F1 car for couple of years and coming back into a different generation of F1 with new regulations and new tires it has been not bad so far.

Bad qualifying or not, points are points that come on sunday and Kimi has been clearly beating Romain that too by 40 points. There are no what ifs and Romain had only 1 retirement for mechanical failure to his name.

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What are you trying to say? I have no clue.

Let me try though, you are saying he has scored 40 more points than RG.
Which is good according to you.

But Romain has had 4 DNFs and one 18th place finish in 11 races. This is only his 2nd F1 season.. a rookie.
Now, to get an idea of Kimi's poor Qualifying..
this rookie has outqualified the ex WDC 8 times in 11 races.
RG's quali pace is the MINIMUM benchmark for Kimi.
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Old 6th August 2012, 16:28   #104
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post

He should have been leading the Championship by atleast 50 points!!!

You have completely overlooked the raw pace of the Lotus and how many points he has dropped due to poor qualifying.
On an average, he's dropped about 8 points PER RACE! Right from Australia till Hungary.
Do a study on his Quali position vs Grosjean's. You will see what I mean.

Now, I will take into consideration that he's been out of Formula 1.
But put any other World Champion into the Lotus and it is clear how much he (and team) have under performed.Comparing him to a rookie is an insult to his talent.He should have performed much better than RG at every race and qualifying session.
Seriously? dropped 8 points per race?
That would take his total to 204 points from 11 races, averaging 18.5 points per race (or equivalent of points for second place finish), which nobody would have achieved other than MS in 2002/2004.

These were the races where he could have scored more:
AUSTRALIA - Bad qualifying, his first ever qualifying session after 2 year absence. Mistake from team (in not informing him to push before his final run) and driver. But he did a good recovery to finish 7th.
CHINA - He was running in strong points finish, when team became over ambitious and switched him to two stopper. More of a team mistake than driver.
MONACO - Bad qualifying, and bad race. I remember he lost good amount of practice time here.
CANADA - Bad qualifying, and bad race.

I can't see how these add up to 8 points per race.

Last edited by SilentEngine : 6th August 2012 at 16:49.
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Old 6th August 2012, 16:55   #105
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Hungaroring GP, Budapest

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Bad qualifying or not, points are points that come on sunday and Kimi has been clearly beating Romain that too by 40 points. There are no what ifs and Romain had only 1 retirement for mechanical failure to his name.
Scoring big points is a whole lot tougher if you start well down the order! He has never qualified in the top 3 and has qualified 8th or lower 6 times!

Romain has had only 6 finishes in the points, which obviously reflects his driving and inexperience. Again, making the point that Kimi, having completed all but one race, should have much more points!

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Seriously? dropped 8 points per race?
That would take his total to 204 points from 11 races, averaging 18.5 points per race (or equivalent of points for second place finish), which nobody would have achieved other than MS in 2002/2004 .
Vettel achieved 234 points from 11 races last year.
Till 2009, drivers got 10 points for a win. 2010 onwards they get 25.
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