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Old 14th September 2012, 20:02   #61
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

Good news for all the Schumacher Fans

The Legend is infact racing for Mercedes AMG for the next year too.

Lewis must be kicking himself for being so immature..

http://www.totalf1.com/details/view/...r#.UFM_ep0gdc4



http://formula1global.com/grand-prix...act-until.html
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Old 15th September 2012, 09:26   #62
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Hypothetically, what would Schumi mentor him on? Especially when Lewis will be much faster than him on track like Rosberg is.
Some stats would always be exciting. Look at how much overhyped Rosberg was faster than Michael in the last 2 races. You can look up the data for other races where both drivers finished!

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...=3&dr1=Michael Schumacher&dr2=Nico Rosberg

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...=3&dr1=Michael Schumacher&dr2=Nico Rosberg
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Old 15th September 2012, 09:33   #63
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Originally Posted by anachronix

Some stats would always be exciting. Look at how much overhyped Rosberg was faster than Michael in the last 2 races. You can look up the data for other races where both drivers finished!

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...=3&dr1=Michael Schumacher&dr2=Nico Rosberg

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...=3&dr1=Michael Schumacher&dr2=Nico Rosberg
I completely agree that Nico has been hyped. He can be an odd rave winner, but not a champion. I believe that his form in Mercedes is due to Schumi's inputs on car setup. Schumi is a 7 time champion and Ross knows that very well. After all, he was the one who spotted Schumi in Benetton.
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Old 15th September 2012, 10:36   #64
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

I think Mercedes is not looking at 2013, but 2014 onwards when new engine formula is introduced. That's their big chance to vault to the front of the field.

For Mercedes, Schumacher for 2013 is like a stop-gap arrangement. They have a chance to sign Lewis now. If they let him slip through the fingers now (by choosing to go with Schumacher), they won't get a chance again at the end of 2013. I think all other top drivers also have a contract for 2014, except Kimi.

I believe Lewis going to Merc is not dependent on whether Schumacher retires or not. I think it's the other way around.

Last edited by StarrySky : 15th September 2012 at 10:38.
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Old 15th September 2012, 14:10   #65
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I think Mercedes is not looking at 2013, but 2014 onwards when new engine formula is introduced. That's their big chance to vault to the front of the field.

For Mercedes, Schumacher for 2013 is like a stop-gap arrangement. They have a chance to sign Lewis now. If they let him slip through the fingers now (by choosing to go with Schumacher), they won't get a chance again at the end of 2013. I think all other top drivers also have a contract for 2014, except Kimi.

I believe Lewis going to Merc is not dependent on whether Schumacher retires or not. I think it's the other way around.

We are forgetting the main thing here. Schumacher is an essentialy commodity for Mercedes as they are still in the process of developing their car, and with his Unbeatable titles he's more of an asset to the team.

Whereas, If Hamilton moves in, it will be more of a Pain in the wrong side for Mercedes as they have to Only Cater to his needs than understand the car.

Lewis is still Immature and Schumi has nothing to lose as he has an Unbeatable record under his belt.

Mercedes & Ross Brawn will ensure Schumi goes out on a High after his contract ends by 2014, Maybe yet another title to his envious record


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Old 15th September 2012, 19:52   #66
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
We are forgetting the main thing here. Schumacher is an essentialy commodity for Mercedes as they are still in the process of developing their car, and with his Unbeatable titles he's more of an asset to the team.
I'm not disputing Schumacher's record, but his role (any driver's role) in car development these days with zero in-season testing is quite small. All that teams have are two 90-minute FP sessions on Friday, which they have to also use for finding the right setup for the race.

Back in the days with unrestricted testing and Ferrari having a test track in their backyard, he may have made a bigger difference. Even then it took Ferrari 5 years to win a championship with Schumacher. He has not really made a huge difference to Mercedes' fortunes in the 3 seasons he's been there.

McLaren have been pretty good with in-season improvements in the past two seasons with Lewis on-board even with severely restricted testing. Not so with Mercedes with Schumacher on-board. Rather than the development skills of the driver, I think it shows that car designers are important and the driver's role is restricted mainly to verifying the development parts on-track.

Mercedes could still use Schumacher as a consultant.

Last edited by StarrySky : 15th September 2012 at 19:55.
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Old 16th September 2012, 10:19   #67
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Originally Posted by StarrySky

I'm not disputing Schumacher's record, but his role (any driver's role) in car development these days with zero in-season testing is quite small. All that teams have are two 90-minute FP sessions on Friday, which they have to also use for finding the right setup for the race.

Back in the days with unrestricted testing and Ferrari having a test track in their backyard, he may have made a bigger difference.
Actually driver feedback becomes even more important in the absence of in season testing. With in season testing, a Luca Badoer could keep trying out various versions and improvement could be made on that basis. But now, the feedback a driver gives based on race performance and the limited testing sessions is all the engineers have to go on - and I suspect no one is better at giving precise feedback based on limited inputs than Schumi. But I do agree that in the absence of race pace, feedback alone is not enough to keep him in the team.
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Old 16th September 2012, 20:11   #68
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

I am sorry, but you got it totally wrong there! Most teams with the in-season testing ban is moving towards more experienced drivers and the young ones are not a getting a chance in the top teams. I dont know if its BS, but Steve Slater quoted this during the Monza weekend about the average drivers age in F1 going up from 24 to a staggering 29!

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I'm not disputing Schumacher's record, but his role (any driver's role) in car development these days with zero in-season testing is quite small. All that teams have are two 90-minute FP sessions on Friday, which they have to also use for finding the right setup for the race.
May be you should read a little more on the initial days of Michael/Brawn/Bryne/Todt with Ferrari in their attempt to a resurrection from a major slump in the 80s & 90s. It was definintely not as easy as it looks on paper! All of Michael's 3 wins in 96 was a fine example of what he was capable of. Then, all the efforts in 1997 ended up badly in the last race. 1998, a good fight against a very strong Mclaren. 1999, went bad with Michael's accident at Stowe(!?). From 2000, it was history

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Back in the days with unrestricted testing and Ferrari having a test track in their backyard, he may have made a bigger difference. Even then it took Ferrari 5 years to win a championship with Schumacher. He has not really made a huge difference to Mercedes' fortunes in the 3 seasons he's been there.
Mclaren started this season with the right foot, the way JB won in OZ indicated that we are going to witness another Vettel'esque 2011 season in 2012. But they never capitalised on that and they are chasing a man in the scarlet suit.

Mercedes, is still building their engineering team and never under estimate them when Ross & Michael are working together in bringing all the right people together! They are still recruiting the big boys in F1. All the right guys are there with Mercedes, they were ON and way OFF this season. But I am expecting a more complete car next year. They had quite a lot of upgrades tested and bringing it for Singapore. You never know, they might surprise many

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McLaren have been pretty good with in-season improvements in the past two seasons with Lewis on-board even with severely restricted testing. Not so with Mercedes with Schumacher on-board. Rather than the development skills of the driver, I think it shows that car designers are important and the driver's role is restricted mainly to verifying the development parts on-track.

Mercedes could still use Schumacher as a consultant.
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Old 16th September 2012, 21:16   #69
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

With all due respect to Schumacher, I think "Schmi - the car developer" image has been helped by being backed up by a superb technical team and unrestricted testing.

Without a technical team comparable to Ferrari's and without unrestricted testing, even Schumi has not been able to create any magic at Mercedes.

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
Actually driver feedback becomes even more important in the absence of in season testing.
Well in that case, surely McLaren seems to be able to develop their car better than Mercedes. And Ferrari. And Lotus. And Redbull. And (I dare say) even Sauber and Williams, this season.

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May be you should read a little more on the initial days of Michael/Brawn/Bryne/Todt with Ferrari in their attempt to a resurrection from a major slump in the 80s & 90s. It was definintely not as easy as it looks on paper!
Like I said, I'm not disputing Schumi's talent or his results on the track. Who said it was easy? It took them 5 years to be dominant with such a good team. That shows it definitely wasn't easy.

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Mercedes, is still building their engineering team and never under estimate them when Ross & Michael are working together in bringing all the right people together! They are still recruiting the big boys in F1.
You just proved my point. Mercedes needs big-name car designers to help develop their car. Not Schumi. If anything, they'll be better off developing the cars to Lewis' preferences than Schumi's, because Schumi isn't going to be driving the car for very long after it finally comes good.

Look at how long it took Redbull to become successful, even with a top-class designer like Newey. Even they, when they got their car to some level, went for a young talent like Vettel and did not continue with Coulthard to develop the car further.
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Old 16th September 2012, 21:50   #70
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
With all due respect to Schumacher, I think "Schmi - the car developer" image has been helped by being backed up by a superb technical team and unrestricted testing.

Without a technical team comparable to Ferrari's and without unrestricted testing, even Schumi has not been able to create any magic at Mercedes.

Well in that case, surely McLaren seems to be able to develop their car better than Mercedes. And Ferrari. And Lotus. And Redbull. And (I dare say) even Sauber and Williams, this season.
You are still trying to make it look easy!

With lack of in-season testing, you get it wrong in the first race of the season, you get it all wrong for the whole year. That has been the trend from the time in-season testing has been stopped!

Where was the top teams like Ferrari/Mclaren in 2009!? How did Brawn win that year starting with a car that got money to race in the very last minute.

Quote:
Like I said, I'm not disputing Schumi's talent or his results on the track. Who said it was easy? It took them 5 years to be dominant with such a good team. That shows it definitely wasn't easy.
There is nothing to dispute there! It was only terrible luck that stopped the team from winning! The Ferrari team lost out only in 1998!

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You just proved my point. Mercedes needs big-name car designers to help develop their car. Not Schumi. If anything, they'll be better off developing the cars to Lewis' preferences than Schumi's, because Schumi isn't going to be driving the car for very long after it finally comes good.
Nonsense! You thought Schumi will spend rest of his time after driving in the drawing board when everyone says Schumi is a car developer!? Its about bringing all the right people togather for every specific area in F1 and thats what Michael & Ross has been struggling to build all these years.

When you say Mclaren has the best development pace in a season, its down the setting up a strong platform with the right engineers. Thats what Michael & Ross are after. This is not cricket!

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Look at how long it took Redbull to become successful, even with a top-class designer like Newey. Even they, when they got their car to some level, went for a young talent like Vettel and did not continue with Coulthard to develop the car further.
You think Newey was using DC to develop his car!?
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Old 16th September 2012, 22:54   #71
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

I just don't understand what I'm trying to make look easy!

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
With lack of in-season testing, you get it wrong in the first race of the season, you get it all wrong for the whole year. That has been the trend from the time in-season testing has been stopped!
That's not true. Teams that were struggling at the start of the season have developed their cars to become winners during the season, even with in-season testing ban. Since you mentioned 2009, Lewis and Kimi were the drivers who took maximum points in the 2nd half of the 2009 season and took 3 wins between them although both Ferrari and McLaren struggled initially as you pointed out.

Of course, it depends on how far behind are you to start with. If you are way behind the leader like the teams were in 2009 and 2011, it's impossible to catch up and challenge for championships. And I guess that would've been very difficult with in-season testing as well, seeing the complete Ferrari domination in 2002 and 2004.

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Nonsense! You thought Schumi will spend rest of his time after driving in the drawing board when everyone says Schumi is a car developer!? Its about bringing all the right people togather for every specific area in F1 and thats what Michael & Ross has been struggling to build all these years.
Nonsense is giving credit to Schumacher for bringing people on-board.

Bringing right people together is what team principals/heads are for. That's what Todt did at Ferrari during their domination. That's what Ross has to do in Mercedes.

After inheriting a pretty strong Brawn GP car in 2010, Mercedes have really not got very far in 3 years with Schumacher. So perhaps, Mercedes chasing Lewis is also a part of getting the best available people on-board in every department?

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You think Newey was using DC to develop his car!?
It's no more laughable than saying Mercedes needs Schumacher as a driver to develop their car. Giving technical feedback to engineers is not Schumacher's exclusive skill, you know.
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Old 16th September 2012, 23:27   #72
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
That's not true. Teams that were struggling at the start of the season have developed their cars to become winners during the season, even with in-season testing ban. Since you mentioned 2009, Lewis and Kimi were the drivers who took maximum points in the 2nd half of the 2009 season and took 3 wins between them although both Ferrari and McLaren struggled initially as you pointed out.
In a car that Ferrari had officially quit development in July 2009 which is quite early in the season while Mclaren continued to develop their cars for the rest of the season bringing their version of DDD to catch up with the Brawns!

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Of course, it depends on how far behind are you to start with. If you are way behind the leader like the teams were in 2009 and 2011, it's impossible to catch up and challenge for championships. And I guess that would've been very difficult with in-season testing as well, seeing the complete Ferrari domination in 2002 and 2004.
Its a different ball game with in-season testing, another reason why teams give up mid season and start testing their future car projects in the current season's races. Its a shame!

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Nonsense is giving credit to Schumacher for bringing people on-board.

Bringing right people together is what team principals/heads are for. That's what Todt did at Ferrari during their domination. That's what Ross has to do in Mercedes.
Its not just Schumacher, its Schumacher-Ross combination thats trying to do the dirty job for Mercedes. Most of their ex'es are back with Mercedes, its about using their experience to bring the right people for the job. I am saying this again, its about building a strong engineering platform like every other top team in F1.

As much as you hate to hear it as a fact, Ross has been open about this fact of using Michael's experience to develop the team!

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After inheriting a pretty strong Brawn GP car in 2010, Mercedes have really not got very far in 3 years with Schumacher. So perhaps, Mercedes chasing Lewis is also a part of getting the best available people on-board in every department?
Life moves very fast in F1. A Renault team that won back to back constructors was too far away from the front in 2007. Similarly, Brawn's dominance in 2009 was already broken by Newey's car in the 2nd half of 2009 which continued in 2010 and became stronger in 2011.

Mercedes going after Lewis is no surprise, they always wanted a No.1 driver for the team after Michael leaves them this season or next. They know what is Rosberg's worth and even with a good car he is going to be still average as he is. It was the most obvious thing to do, when you have the right team, the right car, any team will always want the right driver. Lotus had a good car in 2011, they dint have a consistent No.1 driver. They have the Iceman this year, they are silently in the title chase. Same with Mercedes, thats no suprise!

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It's no more laughable than saying Mercedes needs Schumacher as a driver to develop their car. Giving technical feedback to engineers is not Schumacher's exclusive skill, you know.
I am still laughing my lungs out when you said DC was doing the dirty job for Newey, I am sorry!

Michael's feedback to engineers in developing the cars or setting it up have been acknowledged from the time he started driving for Benetton and lot more when he dominated with Ferrari. If you say "No, its not his exclusive skill", it will not becoming a myth

Last edited by anachronix : 16th September 2012 at 23:29.
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Old 17th September 2012, 00:27   #73
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

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As much as you hate to hear it as a fact, Ross has been open about this fact of using Michael's experience to develop the team!
Have they had enough of him developing the car?

Yes, I read Ross indicating that MS could move to team management when he retires.

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I am still laughing my lungs out when you said DC was doing the dirty job for Newey, I am sorry!
How different is it from Micheal doing the dirty work Rory Byrne?

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Michael's feedback to engineers in developing the cars or setting it up have been acknowledged from the time he started driving for Benetton and lot more when he dominated with Ferrari. If you say "No, its not his exclusive skill", it will not becoming a myth
Once you stop laughing, forgive me for thinking that the car-developer myth has already been busted in the last 3 years, with Mercedes getting worse each year in terms of points and WCC positions. Atleast RBR generally went forward when DC was in the team.

Of course, Schumacher may be better than most other drivers in terms of technical feedback.

IMHO, engineers develop cars. Drivers have always played limited role in car development. Brawn's DDD was not developed by Button or Barrichello. RBR's EBD wasn't developed by Vettel. Mercedes' trick-DRS device and new DDRS type device that they tested a few days back were developed by their engineers, not Schumacher.

Yes, engineers require driver feedback to correlate test data with data and drivers feelings in the car on track. That's about it. And I think all the top-class drivers are capable of doing it pretty well.

Drivers can of course make a difference during races as Michel himself has shown many times in his career. You gave an example of Louts this year and in 2011. I think Lotus had a weak car in 2011 and went backwards (there are articles where Lotus admits that they could not develop their forward-facing exhaust in 2011) and even having Kimi on-board would not have altered their fortunes much in 2011. This year they have a good car and Kimi has made a difference (compared to Romain) by helping the team to use its potential.
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Old 17th September 2012, 08:48   #74
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Default re: Lewis moving to Mercedes next Year. EDIT : Confirmed!

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Have they had enough of him developing the car?

Yes, I read Ross indicating that MS could move to team management when he retires.
As much as you love to ignore the fact, its Michael & Ross who are fighting to build a strong engineering team. That has been their goal all these years! Read it again, strong engineering team who can consistently build cars that can fight in the top order and not win a championship by finding a hole in the rules in a lucky season.

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How different is it from Micheal doing the dirty work Rory Byrne?
Its about doing the actual dirty work compared to crashing the car entering the pitlane

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Once you stop laughing, forgive me for thinking that the car-developer myth has already been busted in the last 3 years, with Mercedes getting worse each year in terms of points and WCC positions. Atleast RBR generally went forward when DC was in the team.
Getting worse in terms of points!? Do you even follow the races this year!? They had more better qualifying positions and podium positions this year compared to their previous years. Rosberg was good to run away with a win this year too!

I will stop wasting my time as we are going way offtopic! Have fun!

Quote:
Of course, Schumacher may be better than most other drivers in terms of technical feedback.

IMHO, engineers develop cars. Drivers have always played limited role in car development. Brawn's DDD was not developed by Button or Barrichello. RBR's EBD wasn't developed by Vettel. Mercedes' trick-DRS device and new DDRS type device that they tested a few days back were developed by their engineers, not Schumacher.

Yes, engineers require driver feedback to correlate test data with data and drivers feelings in the car on track. That's about it. And I think all the top-class drivers are capable of doing it pretty well.
I repeat this again, Michael wont work with drawings of the Mercedes cars or he never did this when he won with Ferrari. I am not stupid to say that!

And the engineers these days have all the gadgets to control every bit of the car from the pitlane. Its not what you think it is!

Quote:
Drivers can of course make a difference during races as Michel himself has shown many times in his career. You gave an example of Louts this year and in 2011. I think Lotus had a weak car in 2011 and went backwards (there are articles where Lotus admits that they could not develop their forward-facing exhaust in 2011) and even having Kimi on-board would not have altered their fortunes much in 2011. This year they have a good car and Kimi has made a difference (compared to Romain) by helping the team to use its potential.
Yes, true!
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Old 17th September 2012, 08:56   #75
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In spite if his precarious contract situation, Hamilton believes the gap to Fernando Alonso in the standings is mainly due to McLaren's mistakes rather than Ferrari's pace, and that gives him encouragement for the rest of the season.

An indictment of McLaren. I feel that this is unwarranted.
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