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Old 28th November 2012, 20:59   #166
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
I guess its this video that was released today by the Spanish media that causing the furore.

It shows Vettel clearly passing the TR, he is even using the KERS down the straight. It will be interesting if Ferrari appeals, they have a deadline of 30 Nov to submit a protest. But this video looks interesting!
Vettel seems to pass the yellow light (on the right side) at 0:15 at which point he is clearly behind the TR. He starts passing the TR at about 0:18 at which point we can see something flashing in the distance (on the LEFT side). At 0:23 we can see that what was flashing on the LEFT side was a GREEN light.

So the question is, does the driver obey the GREEN light which is AHEAD of him or the YELLOW that was BEHIND him?
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Old 28th November 2012, 22:47   #167
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

The first two sections from Senna-S had the yellow flag.

A 0.03, you can see the yellow flags on the left and the line indicating the start of first section, the second section had yellow flags and thats on the right side with Vettel a bit far away from the TR. He revs normally and also using the KERS twice in the Yellow flag section (the KERS icon blinks when the driver presses the button) and gets side by side with the TR car as they reach the end of the yellow flag section at 0.19s. Thats when the green lights are seen. This video is very clear and its an interesting video clearly showing Vettel completely ignoring the yellow flags.

It will be interesting if Ferrari appeals, the moaners however would start calling them loser for being a poor sport but it doesnt make sense after seeing clear breach of rules and do nothing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
Vettel seems to pass the yellow light (on the right side) at 0:15 at which point he is clearly behind the TR. He starts passing the TR at about 0:18 at which point we can see something flashing in the distance (on the LEFT side). At 0:23 we can see that what was flashing on the LEFT side was a GREEN light.

So the question is, does the driver obey the GREEN light which is AHEAD of him or the YELLOW that was BEHIND him?
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Old 28th November 2012, 23:52   #168
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
A 0.03, you can see the yellow flags on the left and the line indicating the start of first section, the second section had yellow flags and thats on the right side with Vettel a bit far away from the TR. He revs normally and also using the KERS twice in the Yellow flag section (the KERS icon blinks when the driver presses the button) and gets side by side with the TR car as they reach the end of the yellow flag section at 0.19s.
If they arrived side by side at the end of yellow flag section, how does that become passing under yellows? There's a line on the track at 0:19 where Vettel is BEHIND the TR. Side-by-side yes, but behind as they pass the line.

And how did you conclude that the line they pass at 0:19 signifies the end of the yellow section? Vettel also passes a line at 0:17 in the video, where he is far behind the TR. What's that line for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Thats when the green lights are seen. This video is very clear and its an interesting video clearly showing Vettel completely ignoring the yellow flags.
Check the same video in slow-motion without the speed display to obscure the view. At 0:38, there is a marshal's post on the left side from where he is waving a green/blue flag - and certainly not a yellow flag. Vettel makes the pass after the marshal's post. Significantly the marshal's post is before the line at 0:19 in the video you posted which you assume to be the end of the yellow section. Also if you compare the two videos, I think it is clear that Vettel is using KERS after the marshal's post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
It will be interesting if Ferrari appeals, the moaners however would start calling them loser for being a poor sport but it doesnt make sense after seeing clear breach of rules and do nothing!
No rules broken, no appeal coming. Spanish media seems to be clutching at the straws.
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Old 29th November 2012, 00:26   #169
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
If they arrived side by side at the end of yellow flag section, how does that become passing under yellows? There's a line on the track at 0:19 where Vettel is BEHIND the TR. Side-by-side yes, but behind as they pass the line.
The driver is expected to slow down with flashing Yellow flags. Not use KERS and get side by side.

Quote:
And how did you conclude that the line they pass at 0:19 signifies the end of the yellow section? Vettel also passes a line at 0:17 in the video, where he is far behind the TR. What's that line for?
The first line that Vettel passes is pit exit line where the cars exiting the pits cant cross the white line on the side until they cross this line.


Quote:
Check the same video in slow-motion without the speed display to obscure the view. At 0:38, there is a marshal's post on the left side from where he is waving a green/blue flag - and certainly not a yellow flag. Vettel makes the pass after the marshal's post. Significantly the marshal's post is before the line at 0:19 in the video you posted which you assume to be the end of the yellow section. Also if you compare the two videos, I think it is clear that Vettel is using KERS after the marshal's post.





No rules broken, no appeal coming. Spanish media seems to be clutching at the straws.
The LED lights always important for drivers even on a normal day, on a rainy day a visible LED light is what the drivers are expected to look at. I have read somewhere that the LED lights are the ones thats controlled by Charlie.

Spanish media can clutch straws however they want, I care less. I dont think even Ferrari would go for an appeal, but this video has enough information!
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Old 29th November 2012, 01:25   #170
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Spanish media can clutch straws however they want, I care less. I dont think even Ferrari would go for an appeal, but this video has enough information!
So whats all the fuss about then ?

This video doesn't show anything conclusive as others have pointed out here.At 0.17 we could see a LED blinking on the left which is clearly Green and Vettel is still behind the TR

Any video yet from German media
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Old 29th November 2012, 01:26   #171
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
The driver is expected to slow down with flashing Yellow flags. Not use KERS and get side by side.
The same way as teams are expected to leave healthy gearboxes alone and not break their seals?

Again, I think it is clear from the video that Vettel uses KERS after he passes the marshal's post on the left - who was not waving a yellow flag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
The first line that Vettel passes is pit exit line where the cars exiting the pits cant cross the white line on the side until they cross this line.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
The LED lights always important for drivers even on a normal day, on a rainy day a visible LED light is what the drivers are expected to look at. I have read somewhere that the LED lights are the ones thats controlled by Charlie.
It depends on whether the LED is relevant for that section of the track or not.

http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012...se-closed.html

The link has the FIA track map with the marshalling positions. Just before the place Vettel passes the TR, there is only a green dot (Marshal) (seen in the video) and not a yellow dot (Marshal Lights). So once he passes the Marshal seen in the video, he only has to obey the flag the marshal was waving - which certainly wasn't yellow. Also I think it was no mistake from the marshal, because the marshal light ahead (controlled by Charlie?) is also clearly green as can be seen in the video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Spanish media can clutch straws however they want, I care less. I dont think even Ferrari would go for an appeal, but this video has enough information!
I don't think Ferrari (or any team) need a youtube video to find who passed whom where on the track or which the section was green or yellow. I guess they can track everyone on track. How many times have we heard teams telling their drivers at pitstops that "you will be close to X at the exit"?

There is nothing in that video which will help Ferrari in any way. It can only help Ferrari/Alonso fans marvel at their generosity in not appealing
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Old 29th November 2012, 07:50   #172
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
So whats all the fuss about then ?
Remember who was penalised in Monaco 2010!

Quote:
This video doesn't show anything conclusive as others have pointed out here.At 0.17 we could see a LED blinking on the left which is clearly Green and Vettel is still behind the TR
Really!?

Quote:
Any video yet from German media
Germans are busy with making wonderful tributes as this




Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
The same way as teams are expected to leave healthy gearboxes alone and not break their seals?
I dont know if thats allowed to do when the yellow flags are shown

Quote:
Again, I think it is clear from the video that Vettel uses KERS after he passes the marshal's post on the left - who was not waving a yellow flag.

Quote:
It depends on whether the LED is relevant for that section of the track or not.
Interesting!

Quote:
I don't think Ferrari (or any team) need a youtube video to find who passed whom where on the track or which the section was green or yellow. I guess they can track everyone on track. How many times have we heard teams telling their drivers at pitstops that "you will be close to X at the exit"?
If you dont get to hear the complete radio conversations on TV it doesnt mean that nobody is talking!

Last time Vettel was investigated for passing under yellow flags in Turkey was through a fan video. Hamilton incident in Fuji 2008 was from a fan video.

Quote:
There is nothing in that video which will help Ferrari in any way. It can only help Ferrari/Alonso fans marvel at their generosity in not appealing
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Old 29th November 2012, 08:11   #173
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-...est_56921.html

Speculation at this point.
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Old 29th November 2012, 09:24   #174
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Whether the overtaking was illegal or not depends on interpretation of the rule on where a yellow flag zone ends:
  • If the marshall's post is the end of the yellow flag zone, then Vettel was still behind the Toro Rosso at that point.
  • If the green light is the end of the zone, then Vettel did overtake under the yellow flag.

I think this exposes a big flaw in the Sao Paulo track design where the post and the light were too far apart. Ideally, both should be next to each other. If the rule says driver should folow the lights on the track and not the marshall, then why do we have someone waving the flags at that post. Logical explanation would be that marshall's post would be the actual end point for the zone and lights are just an aid to relay the the information easily to the driver even under low-visibility conditions.

Redbull can easily contest that the overtaking was done afer a marshall waving a green flag. I don't think there is any action that is likely on this except making the marshall's post and the light at the same spot for next year. They should verify this and correct it for all marshall's posts on all tracks for next year.
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Old 29th November 2012, 10:02   #175
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

A yellow flag zone only ends AFTER the point where a green flag/light is shown and not at the point the last yellow flag/light was shown. If you overtake before the point where the green flag/light is shown you either get a drive through or have 20 secs added to your race time. The rulebook is very clear on both the above aspects. There is absolutely zero interpretation needed as far as these 2 rules are concerned.

Also Ferrari do not need to lodge an appeal for FIA to investigate the matter. FIA rules state that FIA will have to look into this matter on its own as well. But either way a resolution has to be provided before tommorrow as FIA rules have Nov 30 as a deadline for restrospective action related to races held during a particular season.

Last edited by Cesc : 29th November 2012 at 10:05.
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Old 29th November 2012, 10:34   #176
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Couple of points:
1. Flag zone boundary is indicated by the marshal post, and not by the LED flag.
2. In case of discrepancy flag will take precedence.

Also check out this BBC article,which makes it pretty clear

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20531638

Quote:
If there is any discrepancy between a driver's dashboard and the trackside indicators, the flags and lights take precedence - the display is meant solely as a further driver aid.
The footage clearly shows Vettel passing a flashing yellow light in Turn Two and another at the exit of Turn Three, after which he overtakes Vergne down the straight, completing the move before reaching a flashing green light, indicating the end of the yellow zone, before Turn Four.
The yellow flag indicator in his cockpit is on the whole time.
The rules dictate that the 'yellow' zone ends only when the driver passes the first 'green' indicator.

However, on the footage from Vettel's car it is not possible to see clearly the marshals' post that is situated on the inside of the track at the exit of the pit lane - after the yellow light at Turn Three.
It is possible that the marshal there was waving a green flag. If he was, the pass on Vergne would be legal and the result would stand.
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Old 29th November 2012, 10:58   #177
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
If you overtake before the point where the green flag/light is shown
Thats precisely the confusion: What if you overtake after the green flag in the marshall's post and before the green LED light on the track side? In this case, both were not at the same spot and Vettel overtook between the two.

In the video posted by StarrySky below (Post#168), it is clear that Vettel was just waiting to cross the Marshall's post to do the overtake, as is evident from the way the car changes direction and the KERS gets engaged immediately after he crosses the post.

Last edited by zenren : 29th November 2012 at 11:14.
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Old 29th November 2012, 11:13   #178
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Thats precisely the confusion: What if you overtake after the green flag in the marshall's post and before the green LED light on the track side? In this case, both were not at the same spot and Vettel overtook between the two.
There is still no interpretation. If the marshall waved his green flag before the green light the yellow zone ends where the marshall waved his/her flag. If Vettel overtook after the marshall waved his flag then he is absolutely safe.
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Old 29th November 2012, 11:16   #179
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Thats precisely the confusion: What if you overtake after the green flag in the marshall's post and before the green LED light on the track side? In this case, both were not at the same spot and Vettel overtook between the two.
If the marshal was waving a green flag, yellow zone ends at marshals post. If not, yellow zone ends at green light. I would find it highly unlikely that no green flag was being waved but the green light was flashing. Both are supposed to be done and both are controlled by the marshal's post.

Unnecessary arguments but I guess we need something for the next few months.
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Old 29th November 2012, 12:48   #180
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Here's some photographic evidence (photos from an F1 forum) from lap 3 (not lap 4 when VET overtook JEV) which indicates the location of marshal posts and what flags they are waving.

Yellow flag when leaders are passing the marshal post.
2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil-2n7o1hs.jpg

Green flag when rest of the field follow.
2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil-212bl1c.jpg

It would be fair to assume that the yellow flags at turns 1 & 2 are because of Maldonado's Williams in the background. It's not clear why Marshal post at turn 3 was waving yellow initially, but there may have been a reason. The fact that the same post started to wave green flag indicates there is no further incident further ahead in the track. Also it would be fair to assume the post was issuing green flag in lap 4 because turns 1 & 2 were still showing yellow flags, so basically it's clear that Vettel's overtake on Vergne happened in green flag zone.
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