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Old 29th November 2012, 14:29   #181
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
I think this exposes a big flaw in the Sao Paulo track design where the post and the light were too far apart. Ideally, both should be next to each other.
I believe they are independent marshalling points. From the track map (link I posted earlier), there is a marshalling point (with lights) at either end of the straight and another marshalling point (without lights) some distance down the straight. The marshal here appears to be waving a green flag and the light at the end of the straight is also green. Vettel makes the pass after he crosses the marshal's position. So, it appears that Vettel makes the pass between two marshalling points that are green - which would mean the pass is legitimate.

http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...pendix_H_a.pdf

Quote:
b) Yellow flag
This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two ways with the following meanings:
- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track.
- Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track.

Yellow flags should normally be shown only at the marshal's post immediately preceding the hazard.


Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the green flag displayed after the incident.
So the yellow flag is shown at the marshal's post immediately preceding the incident. Where is the green flag shown?

Quote:

f) Green flag: This should be used to indicate that the track is clear and should be waved at the observation post immediately after the incident that necessitated the use of one or more yellow flags.
Green flag is waved at the observation post immediately after the incident. Driver may overtake after the green flag displayed after the incident as per (b) above.

So in the video the yellow zone is between the flashing yellow light at the turn (on the right) and the marshal's post on the left on the straight. Vettel was fully behind the TR in this section.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
If the rule says driver should folow the lights on the track and not the marshall, then why do we have someone waving the flags at that post.
The rule says the light may supplement or replace flags.

Quote:
4.2 Light signals

Lights may be used to supplement or replace waved red, yellow, green, blue and white flags.
I think your question is valid if the marshal's flag and the lights at the same marshalling point are different. As others already posted, in case of discrepency, flags take preference. It's not relevant here because we have different marshaling points showing yellow and green.
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Old 29th November 2012, 16:42   #182
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

FIA says there is no case to answer on Vettel's pass on the Torro Rosso.

Source

Quote:
FIA sources have clarified to AUTOSPORT that the yellow-flag sector starts at the light panel just before Turn 3, at marshal sector 3, and ends about 150m before Turn 4, where a green light panel is displayed.

However, there is a marshal's post on that straight and a green flag was being waved here on that lap.

Under the FIA's rules for the Brazilian GP, if a green flag is displayed before a green light - as it was in Vettel's case - it is the first green that counts.

Therefore, the FIA is in no doubt that Vettel's pass was legitimate, which is why race control was not informed of any potential infringement.

The FIA confirmed to AUTOSPORT that no team had asked for a review of the incident. The ruling body also said it does not comment on the stewards' decisions.
I guess that settles it.

Interestingly, the report also says that Ferrari asked for a clarification (not review) on the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
^^^ Interesting, considering that Ferrari is still evaluating it's appeal.
EDIT: I read an opinion somewhere that Ferrari have no right to appeal. Appeal is those who have been affected by an FIA/steward's ruling. For eg: McLaren's appeal against steward's decision not to penalise some cars in Brazil 2007 was thrown out because they were not party to the steward's decision. Ferrari had the option to protest the official race classification within 30 minutes of the publishing of the results, which they did not do (nor did McLaren in Brazil 2007). If Ferrari had protested the result and their protest was disallowed, maybe they could've appealed with the new "evidence".

Last edited by StarrySky : 29th November 2012 at 17:11.
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Old 29th November 2012, 16:49   #183
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

^^^ Interesting, considering that Ferrari is still evaluating it's appeal.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...rari-confirms/
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Old 29th November 2012, 17:05   #184
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Ferrari asks FIA for clarification

Asking for a written clarification from FIA is a smart move!

http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/11/29/fe...n-vettel-pass/
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Old 29th November 2012, 17:11   #185
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

BBC Sport reporting Fernando Alonso pushing Ferrari to appeal against Vettel .
First the post race brief that he was hoping something to happen to Button or Vettel and now this

"Under the FIA's rules for the Brazilian GP, if a green flag is displayed before a green light - as it was in Vettel's case - it is the first green that counts" - from Autosport.

I really wish Ferrari lodge a official protest and FIA throws it to the bin.That would rub it in even more for people who just refuse to grow up.
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Old 29th November 2012, 17:17   #186
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Is it only me or are there others who feel Alonso is acting like a demanding cry-baby? Why can't he accept that he is beaten and the series is done and over. It's not like he had the candy in hand and it was taken from him. For the past few races he was playing catch-up and luck didn't go the complete way!
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Old 29th November 2012, 17:18   #187
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Ferrari has not launched a protest, so its not going to give the haters a chance. Ferrari has asked for written clarification from FIA on why the overtake was legal. If its illegal its for the FIA to act!

Fair enough as its for FIA to look at the onboards and race control data and decide whats best.

On the point about Alonso insisting, Andrew Benson has been impressive with his crystal ball


Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj View Post
BBC Sport reporting Fernando Alonso pushing Ferrari to appeal against Vettel .
First the post race brief that he was hoping something to happen to Button or Vettel and now this

"Under the FIA's rules for the Brazilian GP, if a green flag is displayed before a green light - as it was in Vettel's case - it is the first green that counts" - from Autosport.

I really wish Ferrari lodge a official protest and FIA throws it to the bin.That would rub it in even more for people who just refuse to grow up.
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Old 29th November 2012, 17:29   #188
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Of course, Alonso is not going to push Ferrari to protest because he's the one who said this back in 2007:

Quote:
Speaking after news of the investigation into the BMWs and Williams broke, Alonso said Formula One's reputation would be damaged if Raikkonen lost the title because Hamilton was retrospectively promoted to fourth.

"It would be a joke, and we've had too many already," he told Spanish radio station Cadena Ser. "If something like that happened, it would end up burying the sport."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63581
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Old 29th November 2012, 17:53   #189
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Quote:
Originally Posted by jraj View Post
BBC Sport reporting Fernando Alonso pushing Ferrari to appeal against Vettel .
First the post race brief that he was hoping something to happen to Button or Vettel and now this
Excuse me, but what's wrong in seeking clarification? Question is about whether the move was legal or not? If it turns out to be illegal Alonso wins, farely.

The question is about whether there was a green flag being waved before the green light or not? I couldn't spot it in the video so if FIA with all their feeds have a better understanding then they should explain it and end this debate once and for all.
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Old 29th November 2012, 19:26   #190
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

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Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
Excuse me, but what's wrong in seeking clarification? Question is about whether the move was legal or not? If it turns out to be illegal Alonso wins, farely.

The question is about whether there was a green flag being waved before the green light or not? I couldn't spot it in the video so if FIA with all their feeds have a better understanding then they should explain it and end this debate once and for all.

Nobody seeked clarification when FERRARI and Alonso benefited from demoting Massa, was it legal...? Was it in the spirit of the Sports, if so, Alonso never could have finished that race within points and would have lost the contention to WDC.

FIA has been clear in this issue.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

The whole issue has got more Haters for Ferrari, nonetheless, they are losing it with Alonso on board since Schumi left. It looks like Ferrari Works for ALONSO than the other way round . They have lost it and must accept defeat Graciously.

Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 29th November 2012 at 19:28.
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Old 29th November 2012, 21:39   #191
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Looks like Grosjean out and Kobayashi in at Lotus.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...jean-at-lotus/
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Old 29th November 2012, 23:15   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D33-PAC
Looks like Grosjean out and Kobayashi in at Lotus.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...jean-at-lotus/
Waa-hay!
Kobayashi deserved a place to park his self.
His driving style is maturing really well.

Last edited by mayankk : 29th November 2012 at 23:16.
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Old 30th November 2012, 00:05   #193
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Bernie Ecclestone has lamblasted Ferrari over Vettels issue.

Cant understand why Alonso and Ferrari such a Big Loser. This Desperate..

Alonso tweeted cryptically on Tuesday: “I cannot perform miracles. I make miracles within the rules.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUTOSPORTF1.COM View Post
Formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone believes the controversy over Sebastian Vettel's overtaking move in the Brazilian Grand Prix is a "complete joke".

Vettel took his third championship after finishing in sixth position in Brazil, but rival Ferrari said it was reviewing video footage allegedly showing the Red Bull driver passing Toro Rosso's Jean-Eric Vergne in a yellow-flag sector between Turns 3 and 4 on the fourth lap.

Since then, however, the FIA has made it clear there is no case to answer as it was clear a green flag was being waved before Vettel completed the pass.

"It's a shame because everything had gone so well," Ecclestone told the Telegraph. "It was a super race, a super championship. Now everyone is talking about this. The problem is that no one knows what is going on."

Ecclestone is convinced nothing will happen despite the controversy.

"Personally I think it's not really like Ferrari to do this. I think they badly wanted to win. But if you want to go back and see what Ferrari have done down the years...

"But nothing will happen. What can they do? Take civil action? Maybe. But the case is flawed before it starts. Nothing is going to happen."

The F1 boss also feels Ferrari's call for a clarification comes too late.

"In the rules and regs normally you have to protest. They [Ferrari] missed that time," said Ecclestone.

"Then there is the fact that a green flag was shown, which nobody seems to dispute.

"It's a complete joke. What they are saying in that letter is wrong. I don't think there needs to be any action taken. It's completely and utterly wrong."


Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 30th November 2012 at 00:13.
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Old 30th November 2012, 04:30   #194
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Default Re: 2012 F1 - Sao Paulo Brazil

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Nobody seeked clarification when FERRARI and Alonso benefited from demoting Massa, was it legal...? Was it in the spirit of the Sports, if so, Alonso never could have finished that race within points and would have lost the contention to WDC.
I'm extremely sorry. But,
1. Team orders are allowed
2. Team orders were allowed AFTER Ferrari paid the penalty for telling Massa "Alonso is faster than you" on the radio in 2010/09.
3. I'm not sure if Webber let Vettel through once or twice in the same race that you're accusing of being non-sporting.
4. If you can watch the race or part of it again. You will notice that your royal Schumacherness let Vettel pass him without the slightest discomfort and this is wheel-to-wheel racer Schumacher we're talking about. Please don't say he was flintston-ing that Mercedes.
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Old 30th November 2012, 08:44   #195
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Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
I'm extremely sorry. But,
1. Team orders are allowed
2. Team orders were allowed AFTER Ferrari paid the penalty for telling Massa "Alonso is faster than you" on the radio in 2010/09.
3. I'm not sure if Webber let Vettel through once or twice in the same race that you're accusing of being non-sporting.
4. If you can watch the race or part of it again. You will notice that your royal Schumacherness let Vettel pass him without the slightest discomfort and this is wheel-to-wheel racer Schumacher we're talking about. Please don't say he was flintston-ing that Mercedes.
Ferrari tried every trick in the trade to aid Alonso, Massa also helped the same cause, but never worked together as a TEAM, Whatever said and done, the Best Team and the Best Driver won this year. Everyone has their own theories to tell.
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