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Old 27th May 2013, 10:23   #211
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

Hell of a race yesterday at Circuit De Monaco. You had the yellow flag, the red flag and then the chequered flag all in one race ! There was debris flying all over the place. What a disastrous race for Felippe Massa. A very well deserved win for Nico. What a way to emulate his dad's achievement. I was very impressed with the performance of Adrian Sutil, who ended the race at 5th. Also, a bizzare collision between Sergio Perez and Kimi Raikonnen. Kimi was fortunate to end up within 10 places. Sorry for Sergio who had to withdraw with couple of laps remaining. But, there was a more bigger news that dominated the race. The secret testing done by Mercedes and Pirelli after the Barcelona race. Came to know that both Merc and Pirelli are in some deep trouble.
See the link below:
http://www.foxsportsasia.com/motorsp...uble,-say-FIA/
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Old 29th May 2013, 22:32   #212
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2 teams have lodged a complaint against Mercedes. This is the silliest thing i'v heard.. Merc testing a 2013 car and claiming no other team wanting to take part.
Team should be banned for the next 3 races.
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Old 30th May 2013, 07:11   #213
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2 teams have lodged a complaint against Mercedes. This is the silliest thing i'v heard.. Merc testing a 2013 car and claiming no other team wanting to take part.
Team should be banned for the next 3 races.
There is more to it than what is out in the media.
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Old 30th May 2013, 07:22   #214
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Nice read on skysports on the test gate. Clarifies many things and how situation is and how it might be dealt.
http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/...-s-secret-test
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Old 30th May 2013, 11:34   #215
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There is more to it than what is out in the media.
I'm sure there is, but nothing can super-cede the Sporting regulations mentioned below. This is independent of Pirelli at the moment and exists between the teams.

Ferrari have been constantly asking for in season testing, there is no way they would turn it down with a 2013 car.
From ESPNF1..

Quote:
"Just to make the story very short we lodged a protest because it's basically the only way to understand the clarification of the regulation where you have a doubt," Domenicali said. "For us it was not in doubt that it was the 2013 car and - as written in the regulation 22.1 - it's not possible to use the previous two year's cars during the season for any kind of activity.
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The regulation of which Domenicali talks - 22.1 in the 2013 Sporting Regulations - states: 'Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year. The only exception is that each competitor is permitted up to eight promotional events, carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier, to a maximum distance of 100kms per event.'
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Old 30th May 2013, 12:03   #216
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Interesting situation for FIA, Mercedes claims that Uncle Charlie was aware of the test and its also reported that he was the one who let the wild cat out of the bag during the GPDA meeting to Jenson, Vettel & Massa about the 1000Km test in Barcelona.

The FIA Tribunal has a tough case to solve now

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I'm sure there is, but nothing can super-cede the Sporting regulations mentioned below. This is independent of Pirelli at the moment and exists between the teams.

Ferrari have been constantly asking for in season testing, there is no way they would turn it down with a 2013 car.
From ESPNF1..
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Old 30th May 2013, 12:28   #217
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Various versions being thrown about on different news sources. As I understand it,

-FIA allow Pirelli to test tyres with a team of their choice during current season on basis on safety grounds.
-FIA allow the above only if the car is 2 years or older.
-FIA allow the above as long as the driver is not a current driver from the team being used for testing.
-FIA granted permission to Mercedes & Pirelli knowing full well the details of the test.

I personally refuse to believe FIAs stance on this, that they did now know Mercedes weren't using their drivers or were using the 2013 car i.e. breaking the rules. Everything was transparent how can an F1 test out in the open not be.
I think simply politics are at play. It just didn't work out as planned and now FIA are willing to putting sanctions on mercedes to save face. As for the other teams protesting, unlike most protests which I find non-sensible this one isn't, given how much data Mercedes would have gotten and how much the current Formula is tyre reliant the teams are well within their rights.
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Old 30th May 2013, 12:33   #218
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Interesting situation for FIA, Mercedes claims that Uncle Charlie was aware of the test and its also reported that he was the one who let the wild cat out of the bag during the GPDA meeting to Jenson, Vettel & Massa about the 1000Km test in Barcelona.

The FIA Tribunal has a tough case to solve now
Indeed. I'm sure Pirelli/Merc will cry saying it was PURELY FOR SAFETY or something and how it has done a huge favour to the entire F1 clan. The FIA will probably claim they gave permission for a 2010 car to be tested.

But rest assured, F1 being the way it is, this will not be rolled under the carpet like a BCCI/IPL fiasco. A penalty will be imposed for sure. I hope it is not just monetary. 1000 km is 3 race distances, huge.

Not to forget, Mercedes have struggled the most with race pace on the Pirellis.
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Old 30th May 2013, 12:44   #219
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The secret test is surely a storm in a tea cup. I would love to know how Mercedes would have gained any advantage out of these tests when they didn't even know what tyre compounds were being tested. The tyres being tested had no markings on them.

They haven't been able to solve their tyre problems in 3 years with thousands of kms of racing and testing data. In this years pre-season testing alone the Mercedes team ran the car for more than 5000kms and now just because they won in Monaco everybody is assuming that they have solved their tyre issues. I can bet they haven't.

Moreover there is a clause in Pirelli's contract that if they want to test, they have to invite all teams, which according to them they did and nobody came.

You know to me this issue sounds almost like a made up drama to keep the season interesting when the racing is not happening.
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Old 30th May 2013, 13:19   #220
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Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
The secret test is surely a storm in a tea cup. I would love to know how Mercedes would have gained any advantage out of these tests when they didn't even know what tyre compounds were being tested. The tyres being tested had no markings on them.

They haven't been able to solve their tyre problems in 3 years with thousands of kms of racing and testing data. In this years pre-season testing alone the Mercedes team ran the car for more than 5000kms and now just because they won in Monaco everybody is assuming that they have solved their tyre issues. I can bet they haven't.

Moreover there is a clause in Pirelli's contract that if they want to test, they have to invite all teams, which according to them they did and nobody came.

You know to me this issue sounds almost like a made up drama to keep the season interesting when the racing is not happening.
I dont think this has anything to do with Monaco. Do you honestly believe Red Bull and Ferrari will turn down testing?

What they could have gained etc is irrelevant , one which you/I and the FIA will never exactly know.

Put simply, Mercedes have violated the ban on in-season testing. Pirelli saying "pretty please" and managing to get their hands on a 2013 car is another matter altogether.
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Old 30th May 2013, 13:26   #221
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Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
The secret test is surely a storm in a tea cup. I would love to know how Mercedes would have gained any advantage out of these tests when they didn't even know what tyre compounds were being tested. The tyres being tested had no markings on them.
It shouldnt be much of a challenge for teams to find out what tyres they are using even without the marking, the markings are there for the fans to follow the race.

Quote:
They haven't been able to solve their tyre problems in 3 years with thousands of kms of racing and testing data. In this years pre-season testing alone the Mercedes team ran the car for more than 5000kms and now just because they won in Monaco everybody is assuming that they have solved their tyre issues. I can bet they haven't.
True, but they have less problems to deal with in this year's car. All they want to focus on is their tyre degradation, I think it should be fairly easy for the engineers to test and fine tune their cars.

Quote:
Moreover there is a clause in Pirelli's contract that if they want to test, they have to invite all teams, which according to them they did and nobody came.
Thats where the whole problem is, Pirelli should open the invite to all the other teams and they let teams know about the testing with 2013 cars. There was lack of transperancy in the way Pirelli invited teams for testing. If the teams were aware of testing in barcelona with the 2013 cars why would anyone turn down that invite?

Even more, when Pirelli invites one of these teams Pirelli is expected to run their own resources for this testing. Which means Jamie should have been driving the Mercedes car when they did the testing and not Hamilton/Rosberg.

Quote:
You know to me this issue sounds almost like a made up drama to keep the season interesting when the racing is not happening.
It could be Bernie's plan to keep the fans talk about F1 when there is no racing, we can never ignore that

Last edited by anachronix : 30th May 2013 at 13:28.
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Old 30th May 2013, 14:37   #222
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I dont think this has anything to do with Monaco. Do you honestly believe Red Bull and Ferrari will turn down testing?
They did. Earlier Christian Horner outright accused Mercedes and Pirelli of breaking the rules. Ferrari didn't blame them directly but asked the FIA for a clarification is what they did was legal. Now even Christian Horner is singing the same song about clarification.

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What they could have gained etc is irrelevant , one which you/I and the FIA will never exactly know.
If this was irrelevant then there would not be so much noise about this test.

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Put simply, Mercedes have violated the ban on in-season testing. Pirelli saying "pretty please" and managing to get their hands on a 2013 car is another matter altogether.
No, they have not because they did not test the car. Pirelli tested tyres on a Mercedes car. Nobody apart from a few key Pirelli personnel knew what tyres where being tested. Even the Pirelli representative to the Mercedes team didn't know what was being tested. In an interview Paul Hembery has clearly stated that they tested 30 - 35 different variations of tyres. The tests were run under Pirelli guidelines on things like fuel load, number of laps on a set of tyres, how to drive etc.

I still firmly believe that Mercedes has not gained anything from this test except for some more mileage on the car and for both the drivers.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
It shouldnt be much of a challenge for teams to find out what tyres they are using even without the marking, the markings are there for the fans to follow the race.
If this was so easy, Mercedes would have solved their tyre problems a long time ago and they wouldn't be struggling as they are now.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
True, but they have less problems to deal with in this year's car. All they want to focus on is their tyre degradation, I think it should be fairly easy for the engineers to test and fine tune their cars.
More than degradation they want to find out how to manage the tyre temperature better, which in turn leads to degradation.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Thats where the whole problem is, Pirelli should open the invite to all the other teams and they let teams know about the testing with 2013 cars. There was lack of transperancy in the way Pirelli invited teams for testing. If the teams were aware of testing in barcelona with the 2013 cars why would anyone turn down that invite?
According to Hembery, they did. Some people said no thinking that it was against regulations and the others just didn't bother replying. That is the reason Ferrari have not directly accused both the teams of cheating like Horner did. They have just asked the FIA to clarify if this was legal and now Horner too is calling it a clarification.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Even more, when Pirelli invites one of these teams Pirelli is expected to run their own resources for this testing. Which means Jamie should have been driving the Mercedes car when they did the testing and not Hamilton/Rosberg.
It was run on all Pirelli resources except for the driver because to Jamie the Mercedes car would be something that he is not familiar with. Nico and Hamilton are and they would be able to provide a lot more accurate feedback about how the tyres behaved. If Jamie was to run the car it would have taken a lot more than 1000kms just to get to know the characteristics of the car and how it behaved under different situations.

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It could be Bernie's plan to keep the fans talk about F1 when there is no racing, we can never ignore that
I have a very strong hunch that this is all a made up controversy.

Last edited by vikram_d : 30th May 2013 at 14:39.
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Old 30th May 2013, 15:25   #223
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It was run on all Pirelli resources except for the driver because to Jamie the Mercedes car would be something that he is not familiar with. Nico and Hamilton are and they would be able to provide a lot more accurate feedback about how the tyres behaved. If Jamie was to run the car it would have taken a lot more than 1000kms just to get to know the characteristics of the car and how it behaved under different situations.
I am sorry but if Nico/Lewis did drive the car, then rules have been broken, doesn't really matter whether they gained anything from it or not. And then, it's not a made up controversy. It is a controversy and it's something even I (just a spectator) would be suspicious about. As a team principal, I would also be screaming "cheating".

In other news,

Williams F1 Team and Mercedes Benz announce long term engine partnership
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Old 30th May 2013, 15:38   #224
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They did. Earlier Christian Horner outright accused Mercedes and Pirelli of breaking the rules. Ferrari didn't blame them directly but asked the FIA for a clarification is what they did was legal. Now even Christian Horner is singing the same song about clarification.
The clarification song is to save their face if FIA calls this test to be legal and the other teams would get their chance with the 2013 car and do the same testing. Its not just Ferrari & Redbull that are complaining about this test, FI and Sauber have also gone public about this testing.

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No, they have not because they did not test the car. Pirelli tested tyres on a Mercedes car. Nobody apart from a few key Pirelli personnel knew what tyres where being tested. Even the Pirelli representative to the Mercedes team didn't know what was being tested. In an interview Paul Hembery has clearly stated that they tested 30 - 35 different variations of tyres. The tests were run under Pirelli guidelines on things like fuel load, number of laps on a set of tyres, how to drive etc.
Paul Hembrey has given multiple versions of what he did, there are also rumors that Bob Bell was there while these tests were carried out. If that is true, why would technical director of Mercedes be interested in Pirelli testing their tyres that is of no use to Mercedes?

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I still firmly believe that Mercedes has not gained anything from this test except for some more mileage on the car and for both the drivers.
How could it be? Hamilton flew to the US on monday after the SpanishGP and he flew back from US to Barcelona to get his chance to test the tyres. He has said in an interview about how much fun he had testing on the Pirelli tyres in Spain. If there was no gain, why would Mercedes want both their drivers and cars to be tested!

Quote:
If this was so easy, Mercedes would have solved their tyre problems a long time ago and they wouldn't be struggling as they are now.
I dont know if they would have solved it, the issue is about getting to test their 2013 cars for over 1000Kms which is over 3 race distance. Thats a lot of testing!

Quote:
More than degradation they want to find out how to manage the tyre temperature better, which in turn leads to degradation.
Yes!

Quote:
According to Hembery, they did. Some people said no thinking that it was against regulations and the others just didn't bother replying. That is the reason Ferrari have not directly accused both the teams of cheating like Horner did. They have just asked the FIA to clarify if this was legal and now Horner too is calling it a clarification.
Pirelli didnt give this clarity to other teams, what Pirelli mentioned was testing and they did not mention about 2013 cars being used for testing. FIA has released an official statement where Pirelli had asked FIA about testing 2013 cars and FIA had responded in affirmative if the test was open to all teams and the next thing FIA has heard is when the testing was already over.

Quote:
It was run on all Pirelli resources except for the driver because to Jamie the Mercedes car would be something that he is not familiar with. Nico and Hamilton are and they would be able to provide a lot more accurate feedback about how the tyres behaved. If Jamie was to run the car it would have taken a lot more than 1000kms just to get to know the characteristics of the car and how it behaved under different situations.
Jamie has tested before using the 2011 Renault car, if that was an issue why would Pirelli hire Jamie. I think Paul Hembrey needs to give an explanation!

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Williams-Mercedes!?

That sounds so bad!

Last edited by anachronix : 30th May 2013 at 15:41.
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Old 30th May 2013, 15:39   #225
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I am sorry but if Nico/Lewis did drive the car, then rules have been broken, doesn't really matter whether they gained anything from it or not. And then, it's not a made up controversy. It is a controversy and it's something even I (just a spectator) would be suspicious about. As a team principal, I would also be screaming "cheating".
See that's the thing, there is nothing in the Pirelli agreement stating who can and cannot drive the car during such Pirelli sponsored tests. This is the supposed loop hole that Mercedes and Pirelli have utilized. So in reality it is not outright cheating as it falls into that often murky gray area of the rules.

You can read any expert opinion about this issue anywhere on the internet and everybody believes that Mercedes will get away with just a slap on the wrist.
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