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Old 30th May 2013, 16:22   #226
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
The clarification song is to save their face if FIA calls this test to be legal and the other teams would get their chance with the 2013 car and do the same testing. Its not just Ferrari & Redbull that are complaining about this test, FI and Sauber have also gone public about this testing.
No, the clarification song is because this test lies in a gray area.

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Paul Hembrey has given multiple versions of what he did, there are also rumors that Bob Bell was there while these tests were carried out. If that is true, why would technical director of Mercedes be interested in Pirelli testing their tyres that is of no use to Mercedes?
Keyword being rumor. There are also rumors the folks from the FIA including Charlie Whiting were present. So what do we make of these rumors? Absolutely nothing, because they are just that, rumors.

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How could it be? Hamilton flew to the US on monday after the SpanishGP and he flew back from US to Barcelona to get his chance to test the tyres. He has said in an interview about how much fun he had testing on the Pirelli tyres in Spain. If there was no gain, why would Mercedes want both their drivers and cars to be tested!
Because Hamilton has openly admitted to struggling with brakes on the Mercedes car. How does the word fun translate to what Mercedes gained from this test?

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I dont know if they would have solved it, the issue is about getting to test their 2013 cars for over 1000Kms which is over 3 race distance. Thats a lot of testing!
I agree it is a lot of testing.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Pirelli didnt give this clarity to other teams, what Pirelli mentioned was testing and they did not mention about 2013 cars being used for testing. FIA has released an official statement where Pirelli had asked FIA about testing 2013 cars and FIA had responded in affirmative if the test was open to all teams and the next thing FIA has heard is when the testing was already over.
Well we don't know for sure what Pirelli offered to Mercedes also. I'm guessing they would have given the same offer to the others, keyword being guessing.

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Jamie has tested before using the 2011 Renault car, if that was an issue why would Pirelli hire Jamie. I think Paul Hembrey needs to give an explanation!
I am not disputing how good a driver Jamie is or is not. All I am saying is that nobody knows the Mercedes car better than it's regular and test drivers.

I am not a Mercedes fan and I am not defending them. All I am saying is that there are no clear cut arguments about this topic. The test having taken place is a gray area. It is not right and nor is it wrong.
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Old 30th May 2013, 16:30   #227
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
They did. Earlier Christian Horner outright accused Mercedes and Pirelli of breaking the rules. Ferrari didn't blame them directly but asked the FIA for a clarification is what they did was legal. Now even Christian Horner is singing the same song about clarification.
Both teams have protested to get a clarification on the rules
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If this was irrelevant then there would not be so much noise about this test.
Because they found out about the test just prior to Monaco.

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No, they have not because they did not test the car. Pirelli tested tyres on a Mercedes car. Nobody apart from a few key Pirelli personnel knew what tyres where being tested. Even the Pirelli representative to the Mercedes team didn't know what was being tested. In an interview Paul Hembery has clearly stated that they tested 30 - 35 different variations of tyres. The tests were run under Pirelli guidelines on things like fuel load, number of laps on a set of tyres, how to drive etc.
Again, irrelevant. How much a team learns in a test is not the point at all.
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I still firmly believe that Mercedes has not gained anything from this test except for some more mileage on the car and for both the drivers.
Mercedes is not in the business of any charity, on track.

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Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
See that's the thing, there is nothing in the Pirelli agreement stating who can and cannot drive the car during such Pirelli sponsored tests. This is the supposed loop hole that Mercedes and Pirelli have utilized. So in reality it is not outright cheating as it falls into that often murky gray area of the rules.

You can read any expert opinion about this issue anywhere on the internet and everybody believes that Mercedes will get away with just a slap on the wrist.
Here's where you are missing the point and getting confused because you are looking at Merc and Pirelli together. Look at them in isolation. They have each broken separate rules.

Mercedes cant test at all This is what we are talking about and it is not murky at all. This agreement is between the teams and does not concern a tire manufacturer.
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Old 30th May 2013, 16:45   #228
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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Here's where you are missing the point and getting confused because you are looking at Merc and Pirelli together. Look at them in isolation. They have each broken separate rules.

Mercedes cant test at all This is what we are talking about and it is not murky at all. This agreement is between the teams and does not concern a tire manufacturer.
What rule have they broken?

I say again. Mercedes did not organize the test, Pirelli did, because their agreement allows them to do it.

This is solely the reason that I have been saying that this test lies in the gray area of the rules. This is also the reason Red Bull & Ferrari have asked for clarifications.
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Old 30th May 2013, 17:29   #229
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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What rule have they broken?

I say again. Mercedes did not organize the test, Pirelli did, because their agreement allows them to do it.

This is solely the reason that I have been saying that this test lies in the gray area of the rules. This is also the reason Red Bull & Ferrari have asked for clarifications.
Part 1 - Mercedes
Who asked them, who was asked before that, Who paid for, what they tested, who organised it, etc are irrelevant. The rule states you cannot test a 2013 car, which they have admitted to doing. As simple as that.

Part 2 - Pirelli
They can test, but they have to offer all teams an equal opportunity to do so. Now, for example if they offer team XYZ a test. Team will HAVE TO SAY NO as this is against Rule 22.1. There ends the story of having offered all teams and going to a team that said yes.

Now you might ask why is it part of Pirelli's contract to test 1000km. Because if all teams agree and appoint team XYZ to officialy test the car, Pirelli can.
Where is that agreement when no one knew about the test?

Last edited by Hatari : 30th May 2013 at 17:34.
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Old 30th May 2013, 18:36   #230
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Where is that agreement when no one knew about the test?
Look don't get me wrong, but I am not supporting Mercedes nor Pirelli. I am just making observations based on the information that I have. So I am going to bow out of this conversation and just believe that this is something that we just agree to disagree about

Some interesting reading.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/...urn-of-events/

http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/05/28/a...wapping-teams/

http://planet-f1.com/news/3213/87395...p-On-The-Wrist

Last but not the least. This thread has a lot of links to a lot more articles and videos about this topic plus it has a nice discussion going on.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...16&f=6#p434416
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Old 30th May 2013, 18:49   #231
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
Look don't get me wrong, but I am not supporting Mercedes nor Pirelli. I am just making observations based on the information that I have. So I am going to bow out of this conversation and just believe that this is something that we just agree to disagree about

Some interesting reading.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/...urn-of-events/

http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/05/28/a...wapping-teams/

http://planet-f1.com/news/3213/87395...p-On-The-Wrist

Last but not the least. This thread has a lot of links to a lot more articles and videos about this topic plus it has a nice discussion going on.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...16&f=6#p434416

The best bit is the "secret" part of the whole thing.
On a circuit, for 1k kms, with the drivers giving out the same info on interviews.
And it still catches supposed team principals by surprise!!
If audi runs a track day on the BIC, 50 klicks from my home, I get to know about in about 3 hours at the most! And i am not even in the game!

I can understand being too busy to read the papers, or watch the telly, but at least watch and read the bits pertaining to yourself.
I have a feeling this will likely go very much against pirelli only, with mercedes getting by easy enough.
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Old 30th May 2013, 18:59   #232
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Default Williams to use Mercedes engines from 2014

Williams have confirmed their switch to Mercedes engines after just 2 years with current suppliers Renault.

Full Article link:
Williams to use Mercedes engines from 2014 Formula 1 season

Excerpt:
Quote:
Wlliams has confirmed it will switch to Mercedes engines next season in what it describes as a "long-term" partnership.

The team has been powered by Renault since changing from Cosworth units at the start of the 2012 season, but has opted to do a deal with the German manufacturer for the new 1.6-litre V6 turbo era.

The announcement is the latest in a flurry of moves in the F1 engine market for 2014, with teams rushing to tie up supply deals.

As part of the deal, Mercedes will supply all associated energy recovery systems for the power unit, although Williams will continue to design and produce its own transmission.
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Old 31st May 2013, 17:54   #233
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

Adam Cooper @adamcooperf1
Pirelli says the use of a 2013 car was the choice of Mercedes, and in effect up to them to sort out with the FIA

Not a good thing for Mercedes if this is true!
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Old 31st May 2013, 18:15   #234
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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Adam Cooper @adamcooperf1
Pirelli says the use of a 2013 car was the choice of Mercedes, and in effect up to them to sort out with the FIA

Not a good thing for Mercedes if this is true!
I'm just completely shocked that Mercedes would even try a stunt like this. Absolutely ridiculous to test. And then point at Pirelli.

Lauda and Wolf have a lot to answer for.
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Old 31st May 2013, 21:10   #235
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Adam Cooper @adamcooperf1
Pirelli says the use of a 2013 car was the choice of Mercedes, and in effect up to them to sort out with the FIA

Not a good thing for Mercedes if this is true!
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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
I'm just completely shocked that Mercedes would even try a stunt like this. Absolutely ridiculous to test. And then point at Pirelli.

Lauda and Wolf have a lot to answer for.

This is a joke mates.
The only reason why Pirelli wanted to test the tyres is because the old 2010 car they were using was having 0 correlation with current cars i.e. unusually High deg and Safety Issues. Pirelli is just trying to wash its hands clean of any wrong doing and passing the blame themselves, something our Indian politicians are adept at might I add ; ), Their contract is up for renewal which it hasn't been and they don't want to go out with bad PR.
The fact is they both had to gain from this test and now that poo has hit the fan It's time to play the blame game.
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Old 1st June 2013, 08:37   #236
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

FIA has asked Mercedes & Ferrari to provide data from their recent tyre test. Ferrari did the test with the F150 for this test at Bahrain.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107799

The 2013 Formula One Season-0499748.jpg
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Old 1st June 2013, 10:45   #237
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

Well that confirms it then. You would have to had given a 2010 car or older car for the test.
Ferrari - Pot Kettle Black.
I think the lesson to be learned is allow the tyre manufacturer at least one In-season test with a car that has more relation with the current crop. Meanwhile, I'll go warm a bag of popcorn, sit back and watch the drama unfold ^_^

Last edited by Maky : 1st June 2013 at 10:47.
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Old 1st June 2013, 19:38   #238
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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Well that confirms it then. You would have to had given a 2010 car or older car for the test.
Ferrari - Pot Kettle Black.
I think the lesson to be learned is allow the tyre manufacturer at least one In-season test with a car that has more relation with the current crop. Meanwhile, I'll go warm a bag of popcorn, sit back and watch the drama unfold ^_^
No really, the rule states the car has to be atleast 2 years old, therefore a 2011 car is well within the rules and should be fine if it was from the 1st half of the season.
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Old 1st June 2013, 19:49   #239
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

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No really, the rule states the car has to be atleast 2 years old, therefore a 2011 car is well within the rules and should be fine if it was from the 1st half of the season.
Aha..
I read it as at least 2 years old interpreting older than. Fair enough.
Let me switch gears.
What do you guys think should be the ideal punishment for Mercedes should they be found guilty?

The options thrown about in the media are anything from complete wipe of points from championship so far, Hefty fine & worst comes to worst ban for the 2013 season.
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Old 5th June 2013, 17:12   #240
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Default Re: The 2013 Formula One Season

Nice article by Gary Anderson.. does not hold back the punches

Gary Anderson F1 column: 'Secret' Mercedes tests and tyre behaviour
By Gary Anderson

BBC F1 technical analyst

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22762318
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