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Old 29th March 2013, 09:34   #136
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"Of course I ignored the team as I want to try and get another place." he said.

"Not really. I just want to race to the end," he replied.

"Of course they (the team) want the points, but I also need to try and get some more as well."

"I don't want to crash with anyone, but that was it. I tried to do my best with the amount of conversation I had; one-way conversation obviously as I wasn't talking back too much."
Link

That's Webber talking about his ignoring team orders at Silverstone 2011. Now the shoe is on the other foot and he obviously does not believe in what he said 18 months ago.

At that point of time, he was a "hero" for standing up for himself against Vettel/RB. I don't remember volumes written on the internet about Webber's morality or his legacy being tainted. Horner also hinted about Webber racing Vettel against team orders in Brazil 2012, but not many discussions on that race either.

Basically, for me, all of this smacks of hypocrisy. It makes a good story when Vettel is attacked - bringing down a hero is good business.

Yes, Vettel can be accused of the same hypocrisy. He wanted team orders to move Webber out of the way half way through the race, but was not ready to accept it when he was told to hold position.

I would've applauded Nico also if he had chosen to disobey team orders and passed Hamilton.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Sorry thats a poor guess. If you know Webber, he may be less consistent than Vettel, but when he's on fire nobody can stop him.
Ok, so my guess based on last 3 seasons of results on track is poor, but your guess based on "when he's on fire...blah..blah" is perfectly good. Thanks for clearing that up. I think you would appreciate that my sample size is much larger than yours.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Based on the expected tirewear it was decided to hold position after the final pit stop..otherwise risk tire damage and lose positions to McLaren etc
Maybe tire wear was a problem for Webber who was going to run his longest stint at the end of the race. As mentioned before, Vettel had run a 17-lap stint on the same medium tires after his pit-stop on lap 5 - when the car was heavier, track was colder and had much less grip after the rain. So how would a 14-lap stint at the end of the race on a much lighter car on a much grippier track be any worse in terms of tire wear?

Based on radio message to Vettel on lap 24 - "Same strategy as previous stint. 3s gap. Save your tires" - it's quite clear that Vettel was told to maintain a gap from very early on in the race and not after the final stop. I don't think it's fun following your team-mate around for 80% of the race with no chance to fight him. Heck, most of us get frustrated if we have to spend 2 minutes behind a truck or another slow-moving vehicle on the highway. So I can understand a champion racing driver getting frustrated on the track. Maybe next time, RB will let them race for atleast 80% of the race?

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Sir in case you still dont understand after reading those links, either both obey team orders or both dis-obey team orders. We had a situation where Vettel disregarded it and Webber obeyed it and therefore lost victory.
Like I said, shoe was on the other foot this time. Webber obeyed it since it was to his advantage. He disobeyed it and had a totally different opinion earlier when it was not to his advantage. So, IMHO, he's not an angel and nor is Vettel a demon. My only grouse is against painting them such in the wake of Sunday's race.

Last edited by StarrySky : 29th March 2013 at 09:36.
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Old 29th March 2013, 10:12   #137
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

That 3 second after the final stop was incorrect, but where was Vettel for the 40 odd laps. Even when Hamilton was hot on his heels and within the DRS, he couldnt get close to Webber at anytime during the race.

Talking about Webber breaking team orders in Silverstone, Webber was hunting down Vettel who was racing struggling to be faster than Webber and not cruising. RB team has confirmed that Webber was asked to turn down the engine when Vettel attacked him in Malaysia and asked to hold position.

2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix-image003_zpsea179a38.png

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...&gp=894&graf=3

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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
When Webber came out of his final pitstop,Vettel was 0.5 seconds behind him.
Where did you get this 3 second cruise gap?
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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
That's factually incorrect. After Webber's (and RB's) last pit-stop, they were wheel-to-wheel at Turn-1. Webber did not pull a 3s lead after the last pit-stop.

Last edited by anachronix : 29th March 2013 at 10:15.
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Old 29th March 2013, 12:07   #138
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
That 3 second after the final stop was incorrect, but where was Vettel for the 40 odd laps. Even when Hamilton was hot on his heels and within the DRS, he couldnt get close to Webber at anytime during the race.
Vettel was asked to hold 3s gap very early in the race (radio message on lap 24 referring to even the previous stint). And as for Vettel being hunted down by Hamilton, Hamilton got closest to Vettel during laps 24-29, which coincides exactly with Vettel's radio message about Mark being too slow and also coincides with Vettel being told to "be patient, it's only half race yet". Hamilton then stopped early and undercut Vettel. Was it team strategy to leave Vettel just 1s ahead of Hamilton and vulnerable to the undercut?

Vettel came out behind Hamilton after that round of stops, chased down Hamilton and passed him. It is during this time that Webber was able to increase his gap to Vettel from 3 to 5s.

It can be seen from the same link you posted. http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...&gp=894&graf=3

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Talking about Webber breaking team orders in Silverstone, Webber was hunting down Vettel who was racing struggling to be faster than Webber and not cruising. RB team has confirmed that Webber was asked to turn down the engine when Vettel attacked him in Malaysia and asked to hold position.
Vettel had a KERS issue in that race. Also, Vettel had a pit-stop problem which caused him to lose a position to Fernando. Link
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Old 29th March 2013, 12:22   #139
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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
Vettel was asked to hold 3s gap very early in the race (radio message on lap 24 referring to even the previous stint). And as for Vettel being hunted down by Hamilton, Hamilton got closest to Vettel during laps 24-29, which coincides exactly with Vettel's radio message about Mark being too slow and also coincides with Vettel being told to "be patient, it's only half race yet". Hamilton then stopped early and undercut Vettel. Was it team strategy to leave Vettel just 1s ahead of Hamilton and vulnerable to the undercut?
Lol! So even when Hamilton got within the DRS zone to pass Vettel, he was trying to maintain a 3second gap to Webber!

Quote:
Vettel came out behind Hamilton after that round of stops, chased down Hamilton and passed him. It is during this time that Webber was able to increase his gap to Vettel from 3 to 5s.

It can be seen from the same link you posted. http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...&gp=894&graf=3
Hope you got a chance to look at the link before you posted the same link back to me. Webber was ahead by over 5s during late Lap 38+, ruthlessness:off mode huh?

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Vettel had a KERS issue in that race. Also, Vettel had a pit-stop problem which caused him to lose a position to Fernando. Link
The KERS issue was during the start of the race and Vettel agreeed that he didnt have the pace of his teammate, Mark attacked him towards the end of the race when there was just more than couple of laps. Its posted already in this thread, read!

The kid has just apologised to the whole team and wants to bring an end to this and accepted his mistake. He should also ask sorry to his fans for giving up on them, who are still sticking their head out for their champ

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106430
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Old 29th March 2013, 13:05   #140
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Lol! So even when Hamilton got within the DRS zone to pass Vettel, he was trying to maintain a 3second gap to Webber!

Hope you got a chance to look at the link before you posted the same link back to me. Webber was ahead by over 5s during late Lap 38+, ruthlessness:off mode huh?
I wish you had taken your own advice to check the link before LOL-ing.

Gap to Webber had gone down to 0.5s (lap 25) when Hamilton was chasing Vettel, but Vettel was denied permission to go past Webber and was asked to basically be patient. Webber was only 1.8s ahead of Vettel when he stopped and was 3.7s ahead after that round of pit-stops. So he basically gained 2s by undercutting Vettel and Hamilton also went past Vettel. Webber was then 5s ahead by lap 38 - Why? Because Vettel was battling with Hamilton for 2nd and overtook him only on lap 38. After that the gap went down.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
The KERS issue was during the start of the race and Vettel agreeed that he didnt have the pace of his teammate, Mark attacked him towards the end of the race when there was just more than couple of laps. Its posted already in this thread, read!
Mark got close in the last stint only due to the KERS issue and botched pit-stop for Vettel. Otherwise he would've been third with Vettel first and Fernando between them. Is that hard to understand?

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The kid has just apologised to the whole team and wants to bring an end to this and accepted his mistake. He should also ask sorry to his fans for giving up on them, who are still sticking their head out for their champ
The apology is expected for ignoring team orders. IIRC, that's more than what Mark did for ignoring team orders at Silverstone 2011.
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Old 29th March 2013, 13:34   #141
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Guys, the race is over. Let it go. Bickering here will not change the outcome of the race.
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Old 29th March 2013, 13:36   #142
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Cant stop LOL'ing dude! The gap after Lap 38 went down by what 0.7 and then 0.2 and stayed on 4.6seconds and then 5.2 on the lap Vettel stopped for tyres. Magnificient, ah

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I wish you had taken your own advice to check the link before LOL-ing.

Gap to Webber had gone down to 0.5s (lap 25) when Hamilton was chasing Vettel, but Vettel was denied permission to go past Webber and was asked to basically be patient. Webber was only 1.8s ahead of Vettel when he stopped and was 3.7s ahead after that round of pit-stops. So he basically gained 2s by undercutting Vettel and Hamilton also went past Vettel. Webber was then 5s ahead by lap 38 - Why? Because Vettel was battling with Hamilton for 2nd and overtook him only on lap 38. After that the gap went down.
Lol!

Vettel's words, the KERS issue was at the start of the race! Botched pitstop or not, both were racing and Vettel was definitely not cruising.

"The difference between second and third is not massive but we naturally try to race. I tried to hold position. I was struggling, Mark was faster and then there was the chequered flag."


Quote:
Mark got close in the last stint only due to the KERS issue and botched pit-stop for Vettel. Otherwise he would've been third with Vettel first and Fernando between them. Is that hard to understand?
Yeah, I did read the apology in detail

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The apology is expected for ignoring team orders.
Ignoring team orders, the results show that Mark finished behind Vettel! Why!?

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IIRC, that's more than what Mark did for ignoring team orders at Silverstone 2011.
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Old 29th March 2013, 13:55   #143
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Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
Guys, the race is over. Let it go. Bickering here will not change the outcome of the race.
What else to do for the next 2 weeks? Keep the comments coming
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Old 29th March 2013, 13:56   #144
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^^ Yup, whatever said and done, only way for Mark to settle this is to beat his team mate fair and square and prove he still has it. I still dont understand why he din't close the door on Seb in the final corner where he passed him. Perhaps, too cautious not to crash?, Even if they had crashed , the blame would have been on Seb. Anyway, looking forward to China!
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Old 29th March 2013, 14:13   #145
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Cant stop LOL'ing dude! The gap after Lap 38 went down by what 0.7 and then 0.2 and stayed on 4.6seconds and then 5.2 on the lap Vettel stopped for tyres. Magnificient, ah

Lol!
I see you have neatly side-stepped the part where the gap went under 1s and picked another data point to continue the argument. Nice.

The gap went down effectively by 0.8s in 3 laps from lap 38 to 4.2s. Gap went up on the lap Vettel stop? Isn't it plain obvious it would because he spends a bit of time in the pit lane at the end of the lap? Ignorance or oversight or blind bias?

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Vettel's words, the KERS issue was at the start of the race! Botched pitstop or not, both were racing and Vettel was definitely not cruising.
So let me get this straight. It doesn't matter what problems Vettel had which affected his pace in the race and lose a position, it only matters that Webber was faster in the last few laps.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Ignoring team orders, the results show that Mark finished behind Vettel! Why!?
Check Marks words (gospel truth) in the link I posted earlier. He ignored orders and raced to the end. Maybe he was only good enough to catch and not pass?
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Old 29th March 2013, 15:19   #146
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Now that you said this where he was well within reachable distance of 1s to 2s to Webber almost through 70% of the race from Lap 6 to Lap 46, why didnt Vettel attempt to pass Webber before Lap46. Why did Vettel wait for Webber to turn down the engine or rather get to the 'Multi21' point?

He was also loud mouthing that Webber is so slow and was asking to move off the way, why? If Vettel was faster, then why not do it on track, so much for calling his lap46 stunt ruthless, he should have tried at least once. I see shades of Alonso whining on the radio asking Hamilton to yield in US of A GP in 2007. Alonso tried to pass Hamilton so many times at least before he whined over the radio and they didnt even have DRS in those days

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I see you have neatly side-stepped the part where the gap went under 1s and picked another data point to continue the argument. Nice.

The gap went down effectively by 0.8s in 3 laps from lap 38 to 4.2s. Gap went up on the lap Vettel stop? Isn't it plain obvious it would because he spends a bit of time in the pit lane at the end of the lap? Ignorance or oversight or blind bias?
What 'IF' are always there in F1, so there was a point when Webber was racing Vettel in silverstone. Vettel was slower, it had nothing to do with the KERS issue in the early part of the race as mentioned by Horner. Webber ignored team orders to race his teammate who was also racing, not cruising like it was the case in Malaysia 2013.

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So let me get this straight. It doesn't matter what problems Vettel had which affected his pace in the race and lose a position, it only matters that Webber was faster in the last few laps.
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Check Marks words (gospel truth) in the link I posted earlier. He ignored orders and raced to the end. Maybe he was only good enough to catch and not pass?
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Old 29th March 2013, 15:30   #147
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Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
Do you remember the Austrian race when Ruben moved over for Schumacher just before the finish line? On the podium Michael pushed Ruben on to the top step. What better apology do you need? That's as big as an apology can ever get. Actions speak louder than words my friend.
Well, apology or acknowledging the help I felt it was more like saying thank you

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Originally Posted by vikram_d
Oh and what an outcry we had then to ban team orders. Now we have an outcry for ignoring team orders. What do we want?
In conclusion, F1 stopped being a sport a long time back. Today it is just entertainment like IPL or any one of the many football leagues that we have.
Agree on both points. I am completely against team orders, and F1 is more of an entertainment show rather than pure sports. And now with this prominence on tyres, its almost fully about pitstop strategies and tyre management.
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Old 29th March 2013, 15:45   #148
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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
At that point of time, he was a "hero" for standing up for himself against Vettel/RB. I don't remember volumes written on the internet about Webber's morality or his legacy being tainted.
I guess you missed the part of a pre race agreement in Malaysia 2013. Agreeing to something and then breaking it is like back stabbing. Looks like both AN and CH knew it and that's why the "funeral" look on their faces (this after they had a 1-2).

Following team orders is up to the driver. But maybe the teams expect them to be up front about it.

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Do you remember the Austrian race when Ruben moved over for Schumacher just before the finish line? On the podium Michael pushed Ruben on to the top step. What better apology do you need? That's as big as an apology can ever get. Actions speak louder than words my friend.
You think he did that to apologize? HAH! That was just crowd appeasement (the boo-ing).
Anyway, let's not open another can of worms here.
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Old 29th March 2013, 18:28   #149
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Now that you said this where he was well within reachable distance of 1s to 2s to Webber almost through 70% of the race from Lap 6 to Lap 46, why didnt Vettel attempt to pass Webber before Lap46. Why did Vettel wait for Webber to turn down the engine or rather get to the 'Multi21' point?
Did you miss the part when he was told (team order) to hold 3s gap to Webber? Did you miss the part where when he was close enough was told be patient since half the race is yet to run? Did you miss the part where, during that phase, he got so much backed up towards the Mercedes that he lost a position during the pit-stop? Did you miss the part where he first had to get past the Mercedes and then chase Webber?

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I guess you missed the part of a pre race agreement in Malaysia 2013. Agreeing to something and then breaking it is like back stabbing.
I guess there was no pre-race agreement to give the race win to Webber. Whatever agreement/code was there applied only post the last stops. It was too close to call at Turn-1 after Webber's last stop - both were basically beside each other. The team then called it in Webber's favour, but, considering the heat of the moment, I can't blame either driver for thinking they had earned the Multi-XX call.

And Vettel was not waiting for Webber to reach the "Multi21" point and turn down the engine before attacking. He was in fact attacking from the time he overtook Hamilton, to get ahead of Webber after Webber's pit-stop (and make it Multi-12 perhaps). Here's an article from Sky Sports:

Quote:
When did Red Bull give their drivers the order?

This part of the story is anything but clear. Reading between the lines of Horner's explanation to the media after the race, the coded - and now infamous - 'multi-21' message to hold position would appear to have been given promptly after both drivers had completed their second stops on Lap 43: "When that last pit stop was complete, Mark was ahead - it was very close on pit exit. As far as we were concerned, it was a matter of managing the tyres to the end of race...and the instruction was given to both cars to effectively hold position."

Of course, Webber returned to the track immediately in front of the on-rushing Vettel and the pair dueled for the lead all the way up to Turn Five, so it's hard to imagine there was time for the messages to be relayed in the midst of that blood-and-thunder battle. Indeed, the first radio call played out on the world feed shortly afterwards from Vettel's race engineer was simply "Sebastian, be careful".

Indeed, Vettel - having been told the length of his penultimate stint would be the same as the one before in wake of his previous stop - had clearly been on a charge from the moment he had passed Hamilton. After overtaking the Mercedes on lap 39, his gap to Webber had come down steadily - 5.009s, 4.215s, 4.602s, 4.252s - and mid-way round his lap 42 in-lap he had further closed that deficit to 3.5s. Throw in a significantly quicker in-lap than Webber (1:43.839 v 1:44.754), a fractionally faster total pitlane time and his fastest out-lap of the entire race and there's no indication that he was going into cruise and collect mode as yet.
Surely, Webber's engineer had the same data, the team had the data and could see what Vettel was doing from lap 39 onwards.

Did they tell Vettel to back off after his last stop, to ensure Multi-21 is reached after Webber's last stop?

Did they tell Webber to turn down his engine before his last stop itself and assured him that Vettel won't be close enough to overtake, even though they could see that Vettel was charging?

At what point did Webber really turn his engine down? Mid-way through his in-lap or out-lap when he was under attack or during the next 2 laps before he was overtaken?

Webber did his fastest in-lap, his fastest out-lap and his fastest lap of the race on laps 43, 44 and 45 just before he was overtaken on lap 46. Yet we say only Vettel was racing and Webber was "cruising" with his engine turned down? Some cruising, that
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Old 29th March 2013, 20:05   #150
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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
Webber did his fastest in-lap, his fastest out-lap and his fastest lap of the race on laps 43, 44 and 45 just before he was overtaken on lap 46. Yet we say only Vettel was racing and Webber was "cruising" with his engine turned down? Some cruising, that
These are his personal best lap times, not the best lap times of the race. As the fuel load burns off you can expect lap times to improve as long as the tires are not fading off. Racing 101

Quote:
Did they tell Webber to turn down his engine before his last stop itself and assured him that Vettel won't be close enough to overtake, even though they could see that Vettel was charging?
Obviously it would be issued to both at the same time so as to be fair. If not, you think Vettel is too stupid to not challenge his team.

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Did you miss the part when he was told (team order) to hold 3s gap to Webber? Did you miss the part where when he was close enough was told be patient since half the race is yet to run? Did you miss the part where, during that phase, he got so much backed up towards the Mercedes that he lost a position during the pit-stop? Did you miss the part where he first had to get past the Mercedes and then chase Webber?
He was told to be patient and maintain a certain pace so as to look after his tires...just like Webber was doing....not to deny him a victory

Quote:
Did they tell Vettel to back off after his last stop, to ensure Multi-21 is reached after Webber's last stop?

Did they tell Webber to turn down his engine before his last stop itself and assured him that Vettel won't be close enough to overtake, even though they could see that Vettel was charging?

At what point did Webber really turn his engine down? Mid-way through his in-lap or out-lap when he was under attack or during the next 2 laps before he was overtaken?

So why do you think Vettel is apologizing. Why dont you write up your amusing theory and send it to Vettel's PR team and maybe they can withdraw the apology
Do you really think these questions have not been raised by Vettel himself?? Obviously they have and it has been explained to his satisfaction and thats why he's apologized

Last edited by GTO : 30th March 2013 at 17:09. Reason: PM'ing
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