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Old 26th March 2013, 19:16   #91
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
Am I the only one (on this thread) who feels what Vettel did is good for F1 and what Rosberg (& Webber) did is not good. I remember something similar happening in the past between Schumi & Barrichello in 2002; which wasn't appreciated at that time. I believe they were fined for the same.

In the end the "team-giri" is not good for the racing world; every driver is out there to race for himself. It is never good for the sport if management start dictating terms on the race track. Imagine an extended situation where two teams decide to do similar acts due to decisions taken by the management.

Note: I'm not a Vettel fan. Iceman rocks
I am totally on you with that one!

Curious how we both support the Iceman though
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Old 26th March 2013, 19:32   #92
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
Am I the only one (on this thread) who feels what Vettel did is good for F1 and what Rosberg (& Webber) did is not good. I remember something similar happening in the past between Schumi & Barrichello in 2002; which wasn't appreciated at that time. I believe they were fined for the same.

In the end the "team-giri" is not good for the racing world; every driver is out there to race for himself. It is never good for the sport if management start dictating terms on the race track. Imagine an extended situation where two teams decide to do similar acts due to decisions taken by the management.

Note: I'm not a Vettel fan. Iceman rocks
A driver is an employee of the team. The team gets prize money according to the position in the WCC not WDC. That money goes towards paying salary to 100s of employees of the team. In this economic climate that money is worth a lot to each team.

What reports suggest (and why RBR asked an explanation) is that both drivers had agreed to a pre-race briefing ("multi 21"). That is where lies the problem. Vettel agreed to something and broke it when it looked like it wasn't in his interest. He acted selfishly. Either he shouldn't have agreed to something like that or followed it. And then he comes up with a excuse that it was "unintentional".
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Old 26th March 2013, 19:41   #93
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

There should not have been an agreement in the first place. They certainly cant say that if a team is running first and second, the drivers cant overtake each other and they have to coast to victory. That is certainly not in the spirit of racing. Vettel may have broken this agreement which should not be there in the first place. But he certainly should not be held guilty for it.

PS: I am not a Vettel supporter.
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Old 26th March 2013, 19:51   #94
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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A driver is an employee of the team. The team gets prize money according to the position in the WCC not WDC. That money goes towards paying salary to 100s of employees of the team. In this economic climate that money is worth a lot to each team.

What reports suggest (and why RBR asked an explanation) is that both drivers had agreed to a pre-race briefing ("multi 21"). That is where lies the problem. Vettel agreed to something and broke it when it looked like it wasn't in his interest. He acted selfishly. Either he shouldn't have agreed to something like that or followed it. And then he comes up with a excuse that it was "unintentional".
To be honest, I don't give a rat's posterior on what Red Bull feels about the entire incident or what background deals/plans they make. The spectator/viewer is here to see a race. We all support/prefer individual racers (ok, some of us give importance to the teams over the racers too) and yet we hope to see a fair fight where the best player wins. And the winner is decided at the last lap when they cross the finish line. Not before that.

Such "pre-race briefing" (or whatever they call it) is against the basics of a true race. That is not a proper race.

If we had such "briefings" in the past, we would have never seen the glorious Senna - Prost fights. Imagine Senna & Prost "cruising" around in their Mclarens instead of the amazing rivalry the world witnessed then.
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Old 26th March 2013, 22:53   #95
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

he had received "probably four or five" messages from the team asking him not to attack, but declined to follow them.

What the now Saint had to say - not so long ago

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93001

So this situation isnt new to RBR.They will deal with it
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Old 27th March 2013, 04:32   #96
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by asr245 View Post
.

What reports suggest (and why RBR asked an explanation) is that both drivers had agreed to a pre-race briefing ("multi 21"). ".

Aha. So that's what a multi-21 is . Was wondering why webber kept saying that post race as soon as he saw Vettel.

Why is it called multi 21though ?
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Old 27th March 2013, 07:50   #97
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
We all support/prefer individual racers (ok, some of us give importance to the teams over the racers too) and yet we hope to see a fair fight where the best player wins. And the winner is decided at the last lap when they cross the finish line. Not before that.

Such "pre-race briefing" (or whatever they call it) is against the basics of a true race. That is not a proper race.

If we had such "briefings" in the past, we would have never seen the glorious Senna - Prost fights. Imagine Senna & Prost "cruising" around in their Mclarens instead of the amazing rivalry the world witnessed then.
I am one of those who supports/gives more importance to teams over an individual. I am not pro team orders though. But they why did SV agree to that "briefing"? He certainly ignored it during the race. He shouldn't have "no" in the "briefing" itself. Then we would have a proper fight and we wouldn't have seen such glum faces on the podium (Mark wouldn't have felt cheated and Seb wouldn't have broken any pre-race briefing).

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Aha. So that's what a multi-21 is . Was wondering why webber kept saying that post race as soon as he saw Vettel.

Why is it called multi 21though ?
No clue. Just some internal codes I guess for some pre-race agreement.

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There should not have been an agreement in the first place.
Agreed. Then why did SV agree to it? He certainly seemed capable of ignoring what the team was reminding him.

Last edited by asr245 : 27th March 2013 at 07:55.
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Old 27th March 2013, 09:30   #98
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

While we all have opinions on how SV should be handled for disobeying team orders, it is ultimately an internal RBR issue to sort out. After all they know best about the agreements, breaches, driver creds etc. MW has some history and he is making best use of the situation to get some sympathies going. In my view he doesn't have it to be the driver's champion any more. If he had that streak he should've reacted and kept SV behind. This is early in the season for favoritism to be shown to any driver. It may be so that MW ultimately is in the mix and lose out on these 7 points, highly unlikely though.

I would wish FIA to ban explicit team orders about positions (e.g. team orders asking drivers to race without taking out your team mate may be ok). As a spectator of the sport I want to see racing and the SV/ MW duel was the moment of the day for me. Only if Nico had the "assets" to challenge LH too ... :-) 2 RBRs and 2 Mercedes coasting to the flag for 10+ laps would've been boring and a criminal waste of spectator time.
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Old 27th March 2013, 11:49   #99
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

I hope you read the complete article.

As Vettel says...

"The difference between second and third is not massive but we naturally try to race. I tried to hold position. I was struggling, Mark was faster and then there was the chequered flag."

It was not the case of Vettel turning down the engine and cruising while being chased by Mark. Vettel was trying his best to be ahead of Mark doesnt mean he was cruising to finish, right!

This year's problem is 'Multi-21'

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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
he had received "probably four or five" messages from the team asking him not to attack, but declined to follow them.

What the now Saint had to say - not so long ago

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93001

So this situation isnt new to RBR.They will deal with it

Last edited by anachronix : 27th March 2013 at 11:50.
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Old 27th March 2013, 14:35   #100
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Webber and Vettel can't be in the same team in 2014 - Flavio Briatore.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106393
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Old 27th March 2013, 15:07   #101
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

I like Webber's response in the 2011 article posted by jraj. He is very clear and says I am not fine with these orders. That's a true racing driver!

Last edited by dgupta : 27th March 2013 at 15:14.
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Old 27th March 2013, 15:19   #102
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A little background on team orders - http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/...n-team-orders/
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Old 27th March 2013, 18:48   #103
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
I hope you read the complete article.

As Vettel says...

"The difference between second and third is not massive but we naturally try to race. I tried to hold position. I was struggling, Mark was faster and then there was the chequered flag."

It was not the case of Vettel turning down the engine and cruising while being chased by Mark. Vettel was trying his best to be ahead of Mark doesnt mean he was cruising to finish, right!

This year's problem is 'Multi-21'
Vettel also said He tried to race me as hard as he could, he didn't find a way past..That sums it up totaly

Honestly,I dont understand this Multi-21 business.My whole point is,both these guys put themselves ahead of the team.Its not the first time and I dont think it will be the last time either.So why all the hoopla?

Also I for one firmly believe that its completely naive to even think that Mark was unaware about Vettel charging and him cruising around the great ocean road

The guys sitting in the pitwall are there for a reason.Wont they have informed Webber that Vettel is closing in?

Compare that to the 2010 Turkish GP and Mclaren situation.Both Lewis and Button were told to cruise to finish line holding position.When Lewis saw Button was charging he asked his pitcrew if Button will overtake him.He was told No.But Button did overtake a cruising Lewis.

Lewis took it in his stride,pushed his car again and went wheel to wheel racing to reclaim his position - now that commands respect.Not this whiny behaviour showing grumpy faces et all in the podium.10 laps were left - the gloves were off here clearly.Webber ignored team orders in Silverstone 2010 and tried to overtake Vettel.He could have tried in Sepang too.Maybe thats the difference - One of then can only try,while the other pulls it through

I guess James Allen summed it up well with "In conclusion: we now know that Vettel has the ‘bit of the devil’, which several legendary champions have had in this sport; but he will regret the way he conducted himself in this race and it will, to some extent, taint his legacy" .http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/0...d-pass-webber/

Vettel is too young to think about legacy now.He is ambitious and he showed it in Sepang.I admire him for that
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Old 27th March 2013, 18:55   #104
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Something I found online on Multi 21:
http://www.marca.com/2013/03/25/en/m...364241826.html

Looking forward to the Chinese GP and future team-orders
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Old 27th March 2013, 19:07   #105
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Vettel also said He tried to race me as hard as he could, he didn't find a way past..That sums it up totaly
A reason why DRS was introduced in F1 if you remember in 2011. The amount of overtaking between the top teams was close to zilch and its not a surprise that the overtaking couldnt be executed from 2 similar cars.

Quote:
Honestly,I dont understand this Multi-21 business.My whole point is,both these guys put themselves ahead of the team.Its not the first time and I dont think it will be the last time either.So why all the hoopla?
You need to read RedBull dictionary to understand Multi21

Quote:
Also I for one firmly believe that its completely naive to even think that Mark was unaware about Vettel charging and him cruising around the great ocean road

The guys sitting in the pitwall are there for a reason.Wont they have informed Webber that Vettel is closing in?

Compare that to the 2010 Turkish GP and Mclaren situation.Both Lewis and Button were told to cruise to finish line holding position.When Lewis saw Button was charging he asked his pitcrew if Button will overtake him.He was told No.But Button did overtake a cruising Lewis.
From Mclaren's version of the story, Button was not informed about Lewis being on cruise mode. The biggest difference of all, there were no Pirellis which suffer sudden death and the Redbulls were suffereing delamination issue during practice. It was ok to try and bring the car home, something Ross didnt want to risk either in Malaysia and wanted the cars home.

If the Lotus/Ferrari cars were in the mix, the podium wouldnt have looked like everyone was attending a funeral.
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