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Old 27th March 2013, 21:29   #106
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Too much has been written in the media with regards to this incident, its not that necessary to blow it up so much.

What was Webber talking about...! He very well knew Vettel was charging, he too tried blocking him, but Vettel had better pace. Agreed the team had certain agreement, but what the damn...! We want Real F1 race, not a staged/ Booked race..
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Old 27th March 2013, 22:31   #107
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
The guys sitting in the pitwall are there for a reason.Wont they have informed Webber that Vettel is closing in?
Yes, they (guys on pitwall) told Webber to cruise home. Probably told the same to Vettel but he ignored it.

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Originally Posted by jraj View Post
Webber ignored team orders in Silverstone 2010 and tried to overtake Vettel.He could have tried in Sepang too.Maybe thats the difference - One of then can only try,while the other pulls it through
Vettel is too young to think about legacy now.He is ambitious and he showed it in Sepang.I admire him for that
I guess you meant Silverstone 2011? There was no pre race pact there.

The fact that Vettel is apologizing means he knows did something wrong. I don't for a second believe he did that unintentionally.
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Old 28th March 2013, 02:39   #108
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Exclamation Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

As many stated, me too like pure wheel-to-wheel racing in F1. But then FIA should demolish Manufactures' Championship. Team orders are not that good for viewers but for the economics of F1 it is a necessary. What Vettel did is the great blunder till date in his career. Now we will see how he fight his championship without the support of his teammate. Webber had many times eased off or let him overtake in the past. If Webber was so adamant last year, Nando would have been crowned WC easily (even with his DNFs)

Cheers!
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Old 28th March 2013, 07:51   #109
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by myavu View Post
As many stated, me too like pure wheel-to-wheel racing in F1. But then FIA should demolish Manufactures' Championship. Team orders are not that good for viewers but for the economics of F1 it is a necessary. What Vettel did is the great blunder till date in his career. Now we will see how he fight his championship without the support of his teammate. Webber had many times eased off or let him overtake in the past. If Webber was so adamant last year, Nando would have been crowned WC easily (even with his DNFs)

Cheers!
F1 will cease to exist the day the manufacturers championship is removed.
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Old 28th March 2013, 10:07   #110
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
Am I the only one (on this thread) who feels what Vettel did is good for F1 and what Rosberg (& Webber) did is not good. I remember something similar happening in the past between Schumi & Barrichello in 2002; which wasn't appreciated at that time. I believe they were fined for the same.

In the end the "team-giri" is not good for the racing world; every driver is out there to race for himself. It is never good for the sport if management start dictating terms on the race track. Imagine an extended situation where two teams decide to do similar acts due to decisions taken by the management.
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Originally Posted by govigov View Post
Brings back old memories between m.schumi and rubinho. Team orders really did ruin the race and Webber is extremely furious as Vettel pulled a fast one on him. It was thrilling to see both of them try to beat it each other and christian horner's radio communication was also to the point. I have to agree with vettel, it is a race and everybody will aim for the first place, team mate or not. That is the reason why team orders were banned in the first place. So, Webber has nothing solid apart from a gentleman's agreement.

Mclaren did purposefully gave the message to Nico to not to overtake Hamilton. That was a bummer in my view, especially after the brilliant racing between Webber and Vettel
We do need to note that in the times of MS & RB team orders were not permitted and hence the action by the team then was not fair. Team orders are permitted today so Vettel disobeyed Team Orders.

Yep we want to see pure Racing but then why work as team. In the last race of Series there can always be a situation where in Webber is ahead but with no opportunity to win the series and backing off can give Vettel sufficent points to win the series - Post what has happened in the last race Webber would not be grudged if he indeed does not back off in such a situation and the Team looses out.

There is a reason that the two drivers make up a team and are not RB1 and RB2 teams but just RB. Now Manufacturers are allowed to back another outfit as well with technology but that would be considered a separate team of 2 more drivers not Driver D3 and D4 for the first team.

Also in this case MW was not really racing at that point of time when Vettle took the lead from him, MW passed up on opportunities to block out Vettle basis the team orders. I would not have grudged vettle this victory if instead he had informed Webber through their team radios that he was going to no follow team order and intended to race to the finish, in which case Webber would have had the opportunity to react appropriately. The way it was actually does does seem to be a bit of "Back Stabbing" .

Yep we all love racing but this happens when both the drivers in question are racing not with one following team orders and the other not.

Last edited by ACM : 28th March 2013 at 10:12.
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Old 28th March 2013, 12:07   #111
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

I think all the talk about the Malaysian GP incident tainting Vettel's legacy is meaningless. He took a shot at a win - on track, legally, and succeeded, without putting the other car out of the race. Good on him!

But, he did defy a team order and the team is free to take disciplinary action on him - to show him who's the boss. When they do take action, I hope they keep the details to themselves and spare us many more threads on whether the punishment was too much or too little etc.

I think most of the noise about morality is coming from Alonso/Ferrari, Lewis/McLaren and now Lewis/Mercedes fans, who would've thought after 2007 that their favourite team/driver are going to dominate F1 for the next decade. Instead, there's RB/Vettel who's upstaged them big time. People just love to hate them.
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Old 28th March 2013, 17:59   #112
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

The team order episode shows clearly who's the boss. Ross gets his boys in line and Christian doesn't . Niki Lauda might not agree, but it is not going to deter Ross to do something he does well. On the same hand, the same cannot be said of Herr Marko. When push comes to shove, Webber knows what will happen ( when contracts are being renegotiated).

Smart move from Luca not to put Seb and Alonso in the same team !

3 weeks seems to be such a long break !! How I wish we have a Star F1 or ESPN F1 24 hr channel just for Racing

Last edited by polopm : 28th March 2013 at 18:01.
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Old 28th March 2013, 18:12   #113
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Superb article by Will Buxton on the state of affairs in Formula1 today, specifically 'team orders' and how it was sickeningly enforced in Sepang on Sunday

http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com...ling-assassin/


The thing is that the man who pulls the strings in RBR is not Horner but Helmut Marko (the poker faced Austrian) and he has made no secret of the fact that he openly favors Vettel over Webber.

Secondly, Webber's performance lacks the same consistency as Vettel so its hard for him to go and demand equal treatment. Same problem with Massa. But its too early for Brawn to decide that Hamilton will outperform Rosberg over the course of the season

At the end of the day its a great loss for the sport and for racing fans to see a procession of cars lapping Sepang one behind the other

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I think all the talk about the Malaysian GP incident tainting Vettel's legacy is meaningless. He took a shot at a win - on track, legally, and succeeded, without putting the other car out of the race. Good on him!
I think the rest of us agree that its your comment that's meaningless to anybody who understands racing & the spirit of formula1.

We care about morality more than legality. We pay money to see wheel to wheel racing....not a motorcade. I suppose you have a similar view on match fixing in cricket

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Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
F1 will cease to exist the day the manufacturers championship is removed.
I for one don't give two hoots about the chase for points and WDC. For me its all about the excitement of that one particular race.

Having said that, I am not supporting removal of WDC because we still need a metric to gauge the best performer of the season. The solution is, more effective enforcement of the 'no team order' rule & maybe reduce the prize money to the wining driver/team so as to make it less important in their eyes.

Something needs to be done to take the spotlight away from WDC !

Last edited by Mpower : 28th March 2013 at 18:45.
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Old 28th March 2013, 18:21   #114
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Superb article on the state of affairs in Formula1 today, specifically 'team orders' and how it was sickeningly enforced in Sepang on Sunday

http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com...ling-assassin/


The thing is that the man who pulls the strings in RBR is not Horner but Helmut Marko (the poker faced Austrian) and he has made no secret of the fact that he openly favors Vettel over Webber.

Secondly, Webber's performance lacks the same consistency as Vettel so its hard for him to go and demand equal treatment.

At the end of the day its a great loss for the sport and for racing fans to see a procession of cars lapping Sepang one behind the other.
Brilliant,brilliant article.Thanks for sharing.
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Old 28th March 2013, 18:53   #115
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by polopm View Post
The team order episode shows clearly who's the boss. Ross gets his boys in line and Christian doesn't .
I think it's just that the situation in both teams are different.

In RB we have a driver who has been a triple-WDC with the team and his team-mate who have a bit of history on track with respect to team orders. The two guys probably respect each other, but not necessarily like each other.

In Mercedes, we have a two drivers, both of whom cannot really call it "their team" right now. It was the first time team orders were issued at Mercedes. And the drivers apparently get along well with each other. Both of them wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of the boss right now. Lewis has shown already in 2007 that he won't necessarily take everything lying down. And Rosberg said on radio after the Sunday's race "Remember this one". Next time won't probably be so smooth for Ross.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
I think the rest of us agree that its your comment that's meaningless to anybody who understands racing & the spirit of formula1.

We care about morality more than legality. We pay money to see wheel to wheel racing....not a motorcade. I suppose you have a similar view on match fixing in cricket
Sorry, either you misunderstood my comment or I'm just not able to get what you mean and how it's related to my comment.

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Originally Posted by D33-PAC View Post
Vettel is a genuinely sick personality, whether you agree or not.

No class, no grace, too much arrogance, and has luck beyond imaginable amounts.
I think you forgot to add "In my opinion" before those two sentences, because you present them as facts.

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Originally Posted by D33-PAC View Post
As for hate directed towards the team, well yes I suppose it is difficult to digest seeing a sugar water manufacturer beat Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus, and Mercedes.
People forget that even during pre-RB phase, the same team existed as a racing team. RB came in and brought good people in and won championships. If others can't win, blame them, not RB.

Last edited by StarrySky : 28th March 2013 at 19:19.
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Old 28th March 2013, 19:04   #116
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post

. People just love to hate them.
Vettel is a genuinely sick personality, whether you agree or not.

No class, no grace, too much arrogance, and has luck beyond imaginable amounts.

As for hate directed towards the team, well yes I suppose it is difficult to digest seeing a sugar water manufacturer beat Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus, and Mercedes.
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Old 28th March 2013, 19:06   #117
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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
To be honest, I don't give a rat's posterior on what Red Bull feels about the entire incident or what background deals/plans they make. The spectator/viewer is here to see a race. We all support/prefer individual racers (ok, some of us give importance to the teams over the racers too) and yet we hope to see a fair fight where the best player wins. And the winner is decided at the last lap when they cross the finish line. Not before that.

Such "pre-race briefing" (or whatever they call it) is against the basics of a true race. That is not a proper race.

If we had such "briefings" in the past, we would have never seen the glorious Senna - Prost fights. Imagine Senna & Prost "cruising" around in their Mclarens instead of the amazing rivalry the world witnessed then.
@ ninjatalli - I want to quote something I agree to with all my heart "If we had such "briefings" in the past, we would have never seen the glorious Senna - Prost fights. Imagine Senna & Prost "cruising" around in their Mclarens instead of the amazing rivalry the world witnessed then."

This is what is missing in the sport today. If 2 drivers get into a dog fight, I dont know what really happens, either they crash or someone runs into the gravel trap or the drivers are interrupted to let go to preserve tyres, fuel or the environment. I mean WHY?? What are these people driving around there for then? I understand strategy has a big role to play in F1 and it has always worked well when they executed it well. But now, nobody wants to take risks, there is no more flamboyance, no more dare devilry no nothing. Its now shrunk into who makes a better pit stop. There is too much cost cutting involved is what I am guessing. But this is seriously bad for the sport.
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Old 28th March 2013, 19:29   #118
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

I just cannot understand what we as viewers want from F1. When a team issues orders and the driver follows we shout that team orders should be banned. When somebody doesn't follow them we shout about morality issues.

I don't blame Vettel for doing what he did. He is a racing driver and that is what he does best. Race. Period. To be a world champion you have to be ruthless even to your own team mate. All the champions till date have been extremely ruthless on the track. Schumacher, Senna to name a few. They were all ruthless on track. You cannot be a consecutive 3 time world champion by following every order the team gives you. I agree that Mark had been asked to cruise and conserve the car & engine but when Vettel attacked and got past I for sure didn't see Mark fight back at all. Once Vettel got through he easily pulled away from Mark.

A nice quote from the article that MPower has posted a link to.
Quote:
It’s funny isn’t it? We laud Senna. We clapped and cheered and said “Bloody right, too,” when he fired back at an inquisitorial Jackie Stewart the immortal lines, “We are competing to win. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver.”

Last edited by vikram_d : 28th March 2013 at 19:33.
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Old 28th March 2013, 19:33   #119
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

I think one solution is to ban all pit-to-driver radio communication. Let the driver decide for himself if the tires need babying/changing or if the revs need to be turned down.

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
Sorry, either you misunderstood my comment or I'm just not able to get what you mean and how it's related to my comment.
Well perhaps you can help us understand then?

While the whole world is condemning Vettel for disregarding the 'spirit of the sport' AND 'team orders', you go on to say.... 'Good on him'

Quote:
I think most of the noise about morality is coming from Alonso/Ferrari, Lewis/McLaren and now Lewis/Mercedes fans, who would've thought after 2007 that their favourite team/driver are going to dominate F1 for the next decade. Instead, there's RB/Vettel who's upstaged them big time. People just love to hate them.
Sorry, why would Lewis fans make noise? He was the one the benefited at Nico's cost.
Alonso is no where in the picture at Sepang. As far as Vettel, he is more consistent but on Sunday, Webber was the better driver.

Quote:
I don't blame Vettel for doing what he did. He is a racing driver and that is what he does best. Race. Period. To be a world champion you have to be ruthless even to your own team mate. All the champions till date have been extremely ruthless on the track. Schumacher, Senna to name a few. They were all ruthless on track.
But thats exactly what DID NOT happen na? We desperately wanted to see a ruthless fight between Webber-Vettel and Rosberg-Hamilton.......not a high speed procession of 4 F1 cars

Last edited by Mpower : 28th March 2013 at 19:41.
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Old 28th March 2013, 19:52   #120
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Well perhaps you can help us understand then?

While the whole world is condemning Vettel for disregarding the 'spirit of the sport' AND 'team orders', you go on to say.... 'Good on him'
The "spirit of the sport" is racing till the finish line. As you put it:

Quote:
We pay money to see wheel to wheel racing....not a motorcade.
In that sense, yes I applaud Vettel. As I also said in my earlier post, the team is free to take disciplinary action against him for ignoring team orders.

I cannot understand what relation this has to match-fixing in cricket, which is illegal and basically cheating the fans. How does Vettel overtaking on track amount to cheating the fans?

Isn't a team order, like that issued by RB and Merc, just condemning the fans to watching team-mates go round and round for 10-15 laps, cruising and not "racing"?

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Sorry, why would Lewis fans make noise? He was the one the benefited at Nico's cost.
Alonso is no where in the picture at Sepang. As far as Vettel, he is more consistent but on Sunday, Webber was the better driver.
What I meant is normally it's those fans who have an axe to grind against Vettel and RB - for dominating the sport. I wasn't talking about the drivers in the context of Sunday's race.
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