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Old 28th March 2013, 20:01   #121
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
But thats exactly what DID NOT happen na? We desperately wanted to see a ruthless fight between Webber-Vettel and Rosberg-Hamilton.......not a high speed procession of 4 F1 cars
Well thanks to Vettel we at least a small portion of it.
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Old 28th March 2013, 20:10   #122
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Vettel was the first to stop for dry tyres in the race and did purple sectors before Webber pitted after 2 laps for dry tyres. Webber did the undercut to pass Vettel and was racing but Vettel couldnt get any where close to Webber. He could never get within 4 seconds of Mark even when he had the fastest tyres. After the final pitstop, Mark pulled a gap of 3 seconds before he started to cruise. He couldnt do anything to get near Mark even with the softer faster tires.

Why!? Vettel was in ruthless-OFF mode!?

When Webber turned down the engine and started cruising, Vettel turned ruthless-ON and passed him. Brilliant racer, right?

Did Vettel forget racing wheel to wheel when the other car is actually racing?
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Old 28th March 2013, 20:40   #123
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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I cannot understand what relation this has to match-fixing in cricket
If they were allowed to race each other ruthlessly (as Vikram puts it), would you agree that the results would be different?

What this means is that the results of the race were FIXED by team orders. So its similar to match fixing in cricket.

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
How does Vettel overtaking on track amount to cheating the fans?
Seriously?, so you think F1 fans all over the world are banging their heads for no reason? All this hue & cry is over nothing?

Yes Vettel over took Webber but Webber was not allowed to turn his revs/engine ON & overtake Vettel back (weather that was communicated directly or indirectly to him is not clear) and Nico was not allowed to race Hamilton (as put bluntly by Ross Brawn)

Last edited by Mpower : 28th March 2013 at 20:48.
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Old 28th March 2013, 20:54   #124
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Here's a set of dialogues from a movie that I find describes the state of affairs in F1 today aptly

Schemers trying to control their worlds. I’m not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how, pathetic, their attempts to control things really are.

It’s the schemers that put you where you are. You were a schemer, you had plans, and uh, look where that got you. I just did what I do best. I took your plan and I turned it on itself.

You know what, you know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press that like a gang banger, will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it’s all, part of the plan. But when I say that one, little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!

Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I’m an agent of chaos. Oh and you know the thing about chaos, it’s fair.


If you have not guessed it by now, it's the brilliant Joker talking from Dark Knight, or shall we say Seb from Red Bull

Last edited by dgupta : 28th March 2013 at 21:03.
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Old 28th March 2013, 20:57   #125
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
After the final pitstop, Mark pulled a gap of 3 seconds before he started to cruise. He couldnt do anything to get near Mark even with the softer faster tires.
When Webber came out of his final pitstop,Vettel was 0.5 seconds behind him.
Where did you get this 3 second cruise gap?

After Vettel overtook ,Webber had 10 laps to show us his super duper racing skills and reclaim his position.Maybe he tried and couldnt or he was busy sulking about Multi 21 in the radio

..and I also think we are making too much about Vettel needing Mark's help in winning another WDC.He had 100+ and 140+ points lead over Webber in 2011 and 2012.It was 2010 which was really really close.
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Old 28th March 2013, 21:06   #126
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Team orders are enforced in a roundabout way today.

FOR EXAMPLE
  • If Nico is closing in on Hamilton & tries to turn-up the pace and overtake, instead of saying "don't overtake", they will say, "hold station, tires look bad...otherwise your tires will be destroyed in 2 laps"

  • If Alonso is about to overtake Massa, and Massa tries to go faster, instead of saying "dont speed up", they will say..."keep your revs down otherwise engine will explode"...or "engine low on fuel, turn down revs"

  • Sometimes they use code words like "Multi 21" in RBR speak and talk in Italian like Ferrari do

The driver does not know if its true or if he's being lied to

FIA doesn't either !!!
Even though FIA is monitoring radio conversations for this explicit purpose, it becomes really difficult to challenge these orders because there are so many variables in an F1 car today.

Last edited by Mpower : 28th March 2013 at 21:32.
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Old 28th March 2013, 21:08   #127
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Ok, for a moment lets agree that Vettel is a hardcore racer, winning is in his blood, and he was brave to ignore team talks and push off Mark Webber. If that’s the case, why was he stone-faced on the podium? why did he apologize? or came up with a crappy one-liner (I f***** up)?

We talk about Senna-Prost rivalary, or how ruthless Michael was. But did those guys really apologise in public for their racing / win-at-any-cost mentality? Or take the case of Michael. I don’t remember him really apologizing for his actions to anyone. Yes, and he did acknowledge that Rubens helped to him to pass. It would have been easier to compare or equate Vettel with these greats if he had the courage to own up his actions and say that he wanted to win and hence he made the move.

Last edited by vb-san : 28th March 2013 at 21:09.
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Old 28th March 2013, 21:33   #128
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Vettel was the first to stop for dry tyres in the race and did purple sectors before Webber pitted after 2 laps for dry tyres. Webber did the undercut to pass Vettel and was racing but Vettel couldnt get any where close to Webber. He could never get within 4 seconds of Mark even when he had the fastest tyres.
Vettel gambled on slicks 2 laps before Webber came in for slicks. In hindsight, it was probably a mistake since the tracks probably wasn't the best for slicks when Vettel stopped.

After Webber made his stop, Vettel was then always about 2-3s behind Webber. It was probably team strategy. Listen to the radio message to Vettel here: On lap 24, just after Vettel's 2nd stop. It clearly says "Same strategy as previous stint. 3s gap. Save your tires". So clearly Vettel was asked to keep a certain gap to Webber.

He closed within upto a half a second off Webber by lap 26. That's when he came on the radio and famously asked the team to move Webber out of the way since "Mark is too slow". Vettel was then told to "be patient, (it's) only half race yet". It is after this point that Webber was able to increase his lead to 4-5s in the next stint, but there is no way of knowing how much of this is due to his speed and how much of it is due to Vettel cooling off. If you don't believe me, check the head-to-head.

I assume that Vettel thought at that point of time that he would be allowed to go past Webber during maybe the last pit-stop. He probably believed that he could have gone faster already earlier in the race. Maybe that is why he defied the team order when he was asked to follow Webber after the last stop.

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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
After the final pitstop, Mark pulled a gap of 3 seconds before he started to cruise. He couldnt do anything to get near Mark even with the softer faster tires.
That's factually incorrect. After Webber's (and RB's) last pit-stop, they were wheel-to-wheel at Turn-1. Webber did not pull a 3s lead after the last pit-stop.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
If they were allowed to race each other ruthlessly (as Vikram puts it), would you agree that the results would be different?
The results may or may not be different. There's no way of knowing. As the RB radio messages from the youtube link I posted above show, Vettel was asked to hold a certain gap to Webber and be patient very early in the race.

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What this means is that the results of the race were FIXED by team orders. So its similar to match fixing in cricket.
Yes, but fortunately or unfortunately, team orders are legal in F1. Although they serve pretty much the same purpose.

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Seriously?, so you think F1 fans all over the world are banging their heads for no reason? All this hue & cry is over nothing?
The hue and cry over Vettel's overtake is over nothing. Webber has a history of defying team orders in the past, so I don't believe he was told not to re-overtake Vettel. Either he lost the battle in the mind after Vettel overtook him, or he did not have the pace or he chose to accept the result because of tire wear concerns. He had 13 laps to run in his last stint, which was his longest stint in the race on hard tires. In contrast Vettel had 14 laps to run in his last stint, but had already run a 17-lap stint on the same (type of) tires much earlier (and heavier) in the race.
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Old 28th March 2013, 21:58   #129
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
The results may or may not be different. There's no way of knowing. As the RB radio messages from the youtube link I posted above show, Vettel was asked to hold a certain gap to Webber and be patient very early in the race
Did you hear the part where Horner says, "This is silly Seb".
What do you think it was all about?

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
so I don't believe he was told not to re-overtake Vettel. Either he lost the battle in the mind after Vettel overtook him, or he did not have the pace or he chose to accept the result because of tire wear concerns.
They were both on a strategy called 'Multi-21" (coded msg). Google for it

He chose to accept the result??? Is that what was obvious to you from Webber's body language & remarks at the post race interview?

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The hue and cry over Vettel's overtake is over nothing.
OK, so what is the hue & cry all about then?


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The results may or may not be different. There's no way of knowing.
Yea sure, but why dont you take an educated guess....based on the pace of the drivers.

Last edited by Mpower : 28th March 2013 at 22:51.
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Old 28th March 2013, 22:59   #130
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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Did you hear the part where Horner says, "This is silly Seb". So what do you think it was all about?
It's either for not following the team order or risking collission fighting with Webber or both.

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They were both on a coded strategy called 'Multi-21". Google for it
Who cares what the code was? The team had no time to instruct Webber to slow down after his final stop because he and Vettel arrived at the same time at T1. If it was decided before the final stop to give the race to Webber, that doesn't sound very fair either.

Since it's very clear that Vettel was told to keep the gap at 3s, I think we can probably assume Webber's pace was also dictated by the team. Let me then take a guess and say that Webber increased his gap to Vettel from 3 to 5s in the laps preceding their last stops to make sure he landed ahead of Vettel after his last stop and brought "Multi21" into the picture. It's probably why Vettel went for the undercut by stopping one lap earlier for the last stop since that was his only chance to win the race.

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Chose to accept the result??? Is that what was obvious to you from Webbers remarks at the post race interview?
Chose to accept the result on track - he made no attempt to catch or pass Vettel. Or maybe he attempted and did not get anywhere near. In the PC, he played victim.

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OK, so what is the hue & cry all about then?
You tell me, you are the one raising it.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Yea sure, but why dont you take an educated guess....based on the pace of the drivers.
It is clear from radio conversation that Vettel was told to keep a steady 3s gap to Webber very early in the race. In such a scenario, it is difficult to know who could've gone how much faster. Either driver could've gone faster than the other if they were allowed to. That is why I said the results are not predictable.

If you really want an educated guess, let me take one based on last 3 years - Vettel would've probably won it.

Mpower, please take a moment and decide for yourself what you want to see in a race. On one hand you post against Merc/RB team orders, comparing it to match-fixing and on the other hand complain about Vettel not obeying one. Once that's clear, maybe we can have a meaningful discussion.

Last edited by StarrySky : 28th March 2013 at 23:00.
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Old 28th March 2013, 23:19   #131
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

chill guys!! time for some laugh!
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Old 28th March 2013, 23:28   #132
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Yeah I think we are all getting a little hot under the collar

Chill time and I really think there was no need for Vettel to apologize either!

Iceman rules
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Old 28th March 2013, 23:38   #133
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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We talk about Senna-Prost rivalary, or how ruthless Michael was. But did those guys really apologise in public for their racing / win-at-any-cost mentality? Or take the case of Michael. I don’t remember him really apologizing for his actions to anyone. Yes, and he did acknowledge that Rubens helped to him to pass. It would have been easier to compare or equate Vettel with these greats if he had the courage to own up his actions and say that he wanted to win and hence he made the move.
Do you remember the Austrian race when Ruben moved over for Schumacher just before the finish line? On the podium Michael pushed Ruben on to the top step. What better apology do you need? That's as big as an apology can ever get. Actions speak louder than words my friend. Oh and what an outcry we had then to ban team orders. Now we have an outcry for ignoring team orders. What do we want?

In conclusion, F1 stopped being a sport a long time back. Today it is just entertainment like IPL or any one of the many football leagues that we have.

This is the main reason I used to love A1 GP series. They had national teams. Sadly that never worked also.

Last edited by vikram_d : 28th March 2013 at 23:52.
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Old 29th March 2013, 01:19   #134
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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In the PC, he played victim.
He played ?? Play meaning the whole thing was a drama. So are you telling me faked his emotions and embarrassed his team with the whole world watching...just for fun? OK lol

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You tell me, you are the one raising it.
I am? What about the other milliions of F1 fans?
Sir did you watch the race or read about it on the internet?
Here let me help you out. Check these links

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21917254

http://www.thesportreview.com/tsr/20...tel-messed-up/

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/0...ng-cast-as-f1/

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin...3/3/14410.html

http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com...ling-assassin/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21916317


So are we all fools to be discussing it ? You are the only smart guy? who's asking us what the hue & cry is all about?

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Either driver could've gone faster than the other if they were allowed to
You got it. They were NOT allowed to....at least in Webber's mind, he was not.


Quote:
If you really want an educated guess, let me take one based on last 3 years - Vettel would've probably won it.
Sorry thats a poor guess. If you know Webber, he may be less consistent than Vettel, but when he's on fire nobody can stop him.

Quote:
it was decided before the final stop to give the race to Webber, that doesn't sound very fair either
Based on the expected tirewear it was decided to hold position after the final pit stop..otherwise risk tire damage and lose positions to McLaren etc

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Mpower, please take a moment and decide for yourself what you want to see in a race
in a 'race' I want to see 'racing', not a hi speed procession of cars with sponsor stickers

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maybe we can have a meaningful discussion
No thank u sir, I am already suffering from hair loss problem. I don't want to aggravate it by pulling it out

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
On one hand you post against Merc/RB team orders, comparing it to match-fixing and on the other hand complain about Vettel not obeying one. Once that's clear, maybe we can have a meaningful discussion.
Sir in case you still dont understand after reading those links, either both obey team orders or both dis-obey team orders. We had a situation where Vettel disregarded it and Webber obeyed it and therefore lost victory.

In the big picture, there should be no team orders but that's a story for another day.

Last edited by Mpower : 29th March 2013 at 02:17.
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Old 29th March 2013, 07:55   #135
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Default Re: 2013 F1 - Malaysian Grand Prix

With Pirelli tyres, there is a sudden drop in performance if pushed hard beyond a point. So tyre preservation is very important. All the teams are ordering their drivers not to push their tyres, after Kimi lost a certain podium last year in the last couple of laps.

That is why RB ordered both drivers not to push their cars to preserve tyres and possibly fuel (it is rumoured that RB particularly are aggressive in reducing weight by reducing fuel taken on). It was not to favour one driver over the other. If it were so, they would have favoured Vettel, their blue-eyed boy.

Vettel took no risk by overtaking Webber, because he banked on his being the blue-eyed boy. He knew that Webber would not violate team orders to try and overtake him.

Red Bull have made him apologise to their entire staff, and also to Vettel. I don't think that they would have made their superstar do such a thing, unless they were convinced that whatever he did was very wrong.
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...rders-20130328
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